Quite possibly the longest I've ever waited for a Bahn Mi (45 mins). And it was ok not great. Not sure we'll come back here.

Confession: I came in because I miss Asian food and most of all, I miss Sriracha. Vietnamese food fits both categories and so I came in for a bowl of pho. I ordered the mixed meat pho which had raw beef and brisket. I didn't expect much seeing how this is Vietnamese food in London, but it wasn't bad. The beef wasn't raw, the soup could be richer, and there wasn't any tripe. That said, I didn't hate it and it satisfied my craving. The service was prompt and the food came out quickly. The prices were reasonable as well. I'm not sure I would necessarily come back but if you're craving a bowl of noodles like I was, this will do the job. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

See all

Solid pho place in the Holborn area. The banh mi was also tasty. They have real sriracha (the rooster) and hoisin sauce. The flavor of the beef broth was quite flavorful. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Grilled Pork Banh Mi - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

See all

Up there with the Newcommen-Watt steam engine and the invention of human rights among the eighteenth century's foremost contributions to modern life, the sandwich is so much more than the sum of its parts. Practical, ubiquitous, and frequently - if not universally - delicious, the sandwich is one of life's great constants. And yet at the same time, versatility is key to its appeal, offering a doughy canvass for the world's culinary diversity. Does anything better embody this than banh mi? There's something truly inspired about that one-two punch of rich, sweet pork fat and the zing of coriander-laced vegetables, all sinking into rice-soft dough. Almost enough to temporarily turn one into an apologist for the sins of French colonialism. Throw in the inherent fun of its 'street food' mental associations, and there are few better prospects for lunch-on-the-go. Banh Mi Bay's 'Bay Special' was a solid fix to my recent cravings, but by no means exemplary. While undoubtedly a good sandwich, it still left significant room for improvement. The pate could have creamier, the caramel-glazed ham more flavourful. Above all, the small dose of coriander and lack of any discernible seasoning or sauce deprived this banh mi of its characteristic freshness. At £5.95, it was reasonable, without quite being good value. All in all, a solid lunch, but not a day-changing one. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

They honestly had delicious food, but the service was not competent. The new server accidentally ordered me two of what I ordered. She asked if I wanted to take it to go or not at all. I said I would take it to go, so it doesn't go to waste. Then she charged us for the extra item! I really shouldn't have been charged. read more

Nice looking restaurant with a relaxed vibe. Because of the grill open kitchen near the entrance, the noise level is a bit higher. The rare beef and cooked beef pho is nice but rare beef isn't exactly rare when they came. The cooked beef on the other hand is cooled through and very tasty. I also ordered avocado and kiwi juice, freshly made you can see the fruit bits - loved it. Overall 4* experience, great for a chilled night hanging out with friends. read more

Banh Mi Bay is a bit further than most of my other regular lunch spots...but their food is so good that it is worth an extra bit of exercise. So far I have only tried the take-away noodles with satay chicken and the bay special sandwich (full of porky goodness.) They were both yummy enough to make me into an instant fan. The only problem is this place is BUSY at lunch time and so the take-away line often goes out of the door. They are very speedy at putting orders together...but it's all a bit of an un-organised jumble... so you might have to wait a while to receive your lunch! *It seems my yelp friends have all reviewed this place yeeears ago! I am so late to the party!!* read more

Banh Mi Bay - Satay chicken & noodles. - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

See all

Do NOT get their pho. It is a horrible representation of the popular Vietnamese noodle soup and if you actually think that it tastes good, then you don't know what you're missing out on. I highly doubt I will find a pho place in London that will even compare to pho in California, but I won't burn that bridge yet. Banh Mi Bay is down the street from my school so I find myself here quite a bit. Their broken rice dishes are actually really good and based on my experience with their pho, I will gladly order their rice dishes any day. I've tried the grilled chicken and grilled pork and both are tasty. The pho is unbearably bland and you're going to have to douse it in hoisin and sriracha to give it some flavor. Instead of pho they should really call it noodles in hot water with meat. But other than that, the service is pretty quick and everything else I tried isn't half bad. The restaurant is clean and they're open for lunch and reopen for dinner around 5:30PM. Just an FYI, since I tried going there after class one day and I had to wait til they opened for dinner. read more

First time I came here I liked it although was slightly underwhelmed. Didn't love the summer roll but I think I got one with a weird filling. Anyway, came back today and randomly decided to try the tiger prawn banh mi. The prawns were freshly cooked and seriously delicious, really punchy flavour which blended so so deliciously with the pickled carrots. I really savoured it. Also, whereas the first time I came here I didn't really like the bread today it was really good. Fresh, crispy, even the bit that didn't have any sauce/filling involved (which normally just makes me sad). Friendly service, pretty decor, great value for money. What would really make the sandwiches perfect is: more filling. Now I know that makes me sound greedy, but it's really all about the savouring, and getting the right balance of flavour between the filling and the bread, blah blah just bring me more prawns. read more

It's a tough call but I think Banh Mi Bay edges out Pho as my favorite Vietnamese restaurant in Farringdon. Great tasty sandwiches---be sure to get #2, the pulled caramel pork---sweet, spicy, and simply delicious---the perfect summertime baguette. Banh Mi Bay draws in the lunch crowd, so get there early to snag a table or be prepared to get your sandwich to go. I've been twice now for lunch and both times got variations of a pork sandwich which is a relative bargain at £3.50. Next time I will have to try one of the mains as they looked great (a wide assortments of soups and grilled meats are on the menu) but are more appropriate for dining in. The restaurant looks more like a pastel green colored English tea room than a Vietnamese cafe. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

Been meaning to check this place out for a while now, and I finally did today. I walked away with two banh mi, one being tofu and the other being shrimp. The shrimp was entirely new to me, as I usually get pate at Lee's in the states. But it was good overall. The atmosphere wasn't your typical place, a bit nicer actually. I liked the location being so close to the bus and the service was quick. I'll be back! read more

Banh Mi Bay - Table for one please! - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

See all

Came here for a quick lunch after exploring the British History Museum. We arrived at about 12 pm and the place was at 50% capacity. By 12:30 pm the place was packed with only standing room! I ordered the vegetarian pho and it was awesome. The noodles were perfectly cooked and the carrots, red chili slices, thai basil, mint, lemon grass, spouts and spring onions were a lovely accompaniment to the dish. Did I mention they have Sriracha bottles on each table? Extra points! read more

Banh Mi Bay - Veg Pho - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

We got into the bánh mì thing whilst living in NYC where Vietnamese sandwich shops where popping up all over the place. Anyhow we were in Bloomsbury over the weekend and saw a Pret on one corner and a Vietnamese sandwich shop across the intersection. Our curiosity led us into Bánh Mì Bay and we were duly rewarded. these guys have quite a few things on the menu including pho, salads, rice boxes, Vietnamese coffee etc. etc., however, we were there for one reason only... The waitress recommended their special Banh Mi called the Dac Biet (pate, spiced pork) and the wife got the Banh Mi Tom Nuong (Chargrilled Prawn). Wow these sandwich really pack in the flavour! The might not have been as juicy and rich as the ones we were used to in NYC, but in fairness they somehow tasted fresher and more healthy which is a win win. Can't wait to go back! read more

Banh Mi Bay - Beef pho and some warming green tea - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

Very decent Vietnamese good in a central location. It's chilled out and laid back. The food is really 3.5 stars and very fresh. That said, nothing was a standout. Summer rolls were refreshing but lacked a little oomph. Vietnamese pancakes needed to be crisper and better lettuce (no thank you iceberg lettuce hearts). Steamed veg was a little boring (ok, it's steamed veg, I get it) but the dipping sauce was flavoursome. The prawn bun had no sauce so we ended up compensating with other stuff on our table from other dishes. The also annoyingly brought everything at the same time. Seriously, it was a small table. Couldn't you have staggered the dishes?! I would recommend ordering your starters and then ordering any mains. We struggled to fit everything on our table and needed to put the wine bottle on the floor. read more

its a bit overpriced, typically of London. I first came across banh mi living in australia and in a country known for being ridiculously expensive these always hit the spot and were a bargain, no pate tho!. the quality is the same, if not better and everything was bloody tasty. the various noodles are also very very good. could do with some extra spice and perhaps some citrus? good work lunch spot. read more

Banh Mi Bay - pork roll - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

Erm. I was a little disappointed by Banh Mi Bay. The food's just so-so and, in truth, it's more expensive that the Vietnamese places in Shoreditch, which aren't too far away. I've been here twice now and had a noodle dish the first time around which was of a decent size and filled me up nicely. The second time, I had a banh mi, which turned out to be on the small side. I ended up ordering a side of summer rolls just so I wouldn't go hungry. If I hadn't been to Keu, I wouldn't have minded. But I have, and Keu offers much better tasting and more substantial banh mi than this place does. So, if it's banh mi you're looking, just take the short bus trip to Keu. You'll be far better off for it. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

Finally tried one of the Banh Mi from here today. I had the "Bay Special" on Vietnamese bread. £3.50. My boyfriend had the caramel pork. Get the Bay Special! Oh my. It was incredible. It was very, very busy at 1 o'clock today, we had to queue to take away and it didn't look like there would be much chance of getting a table any time soon. That's okay though. A lot of things can be forgiven for sandwiches like this. Inside the decor is very cute, Farrow and Ball type colours on the walls and exposed brickwork and pretty lighting. Definitely more a cafe atmosphere than an evening out feel though. I'm just so glad someone is doing Banh Mi in this part of London. I'll be back! read more

Visited this Vietnamese restaurant on a lazy Saturday afternoon after heading to Hatton Gardens to resize my ring, my boyfriend has been here the year before, he was hungry, and he wanted to come here over my suggestion of going to Kimchi nearer Hoborn! I was expecting something good. We ordered:- Goi Cuon - Summer Rolls Tiger prawns, sliced pork, rice vermicelli, lettuce and Vietnamese herbs wrapped in rice paper, served with a peanut hoi sin dipping sauce. Pho noodle soup for my boyfriend (sorry don't know which one he ordered, some sort of beef) Bun Vermicelli Noodle Salad (Ga Sate - Chargrilled Satay Chicken) 2x Vietnamese iced coffee. Comments: The summer rolls were so and so, tasted really bland. The prawn was big, which I appreciated, but the only flavour is only coming from the dipping sauce. My boyfriend's Pho unfortunately came with lukewarm soup. It was really disappointing. The meat tasted pretty nice but noone wants lukewarm meals. We scouted other tables who ordered Pho after us and their noodle soups were steaming hot! That's inconsistency right there for you. My vermicelli noodle salad was ok, I like the one at Cafe East more. The chicken was pretty dry, but I was hungry. The iced coffee was really strong. They don't use the Truong brand that I am used to, and they seem to put less condensed milk in as well, so it tasted more bitter than usual. The worst thing is by the time we left, I was already feeling ill. By the time we got home about 30-40 min later, both of us were throwing up and on the toilet in general. I really don't want to come back here :( It's not like the food was anything spectacular, and I think it has some hygiene issues perhaps. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

See all

Perfectly decent Pho, nothing to shout about. Meat is boneless unlike some other places that just serve you the bones! It's cheaper if you get takeaway so consider that. Food arrives quickly, however it's brought from downstairs giving you the fear that the person bringing it up may fall and drop it all. I'm sure this doesn't happen often... I've heard that the Bahn Mi is actually their signature dish, so will need to try this on my next visit and update this score. We were seated at the middle of the restaurant and when it's lunchtime it can get quite annoying as you'll be surrounded by the lunch crowd looking to get their takeaway. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Chicken pho - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

My friend and I ordered flat rice noodle dishes which we both found to be extremely salty. The summer rolls are lovely and fresh though. Staff are friendly and after a mix up of orders, they accepted the error and apologised for the mistake. However, I won't be going back to this place in a hurry. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Prawn flat rice noodles and summer rolls - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

This place claims to have brought Banh Mi to the London food scene and it delivers. I grabbed a Banh Mi for lunch and it was made quick despite the surge of customers around noon. Specifically, I ordered a Banh Mi Chicken Satay and was hesitant since they deviate from the traditional Banh Mi protein options. The veggies were fresh and the Satay was a bit on the dry side. Altogether, this place offers legitimate Banh Mi and I'd consider it a must if want to munch on a budget. read more

Banh Mi Bay - Vietnamese Near Me - London, XGL

My friend and I got the brisket pho and a pork Bhan mi, and we shared. They were so good! I would unreservedly recommend this place for an outing with friends and family. It is reasonably priced. The atmosphere is nice, and the decor is cute and chic. The place can use a little bit of more customers. Perhaps entice the college crowd with some discounts. [Hint. Hint. Wink. Wink.] read more

See all

Since I've moved to London I have been searching for all the foods that remind me of home in California, One of which include vietnamese sandwiches. if you are not familiar with this sort of sandwich, let me clue you in - it's a taste sensation! French baguette filled with pickled carrots/radish/cucmbers, cilantro or coriander, green chili pepper, butter, soy sauce (just a drip), and your choice of whatever meats! I always get bbq pork or chicken, which is grilled meat with an asian type of seasoning. Banh Mi Bay is only a 5 min walk from my work, so I try to make a trip out here every week to order their grilled bbq pork sandwich which is only £3! I love how they are not stingy about the amount of meat, and that the french baguette doesn't tear the roof of your mouth at every bite. Anyways, check this place out for the sandwiches. Not sure yet about the other items on the menu but for good pho i usually go to Mien Tay i nClapha. read more

Since we can't make it to the yelp event; let's bring yelp to us. With various pre-dinner email exchanges, including "WTF you are taking us to a SANDWICH shop for Friday dinner"; we trooped off to a restaurant exactly 5 mins walk away from apparently where most of my friends work. The rolls were yummy and the pho were good (the beef was actually raw as per advertised!!!) but they seem to need to add a bit more rice flour or whatever that keeps noodles from not sticking as mine were slightly balled and glued up. Ditto for the rolls. They are massive so I'd rather you cut it up for me as well. The brown gunk (whatever that was) wasn't too tasty and our pho did come with hoisin sauce... which is new; I like hoisin sauce though, so whatever. The highlight of the meal was defo the sandwiches with everyone proclaiming that they'd come back for lunch since it was a nice little restaurant and only around 4 squids for a fresh french baguette sandwich. Unfortunately they were sold out of the viet baguette so can't tell you what that was like. No alcohol license yet; but as Li-mei said; they are super chill so do feel free to BYO for the mo and good selection of asian soft drinks of offer as well. read more

It's 2min away from my office and it's one of the best Vietnamese food I've had in London. The grilled pork is my favourite and I love the pickled vegetables on the side. It gets super busy in the afternoon during weekdays with all the city workers but you can opt for take out if you're in a rush. Although the table services are pretty quick too (the ladies there are super efficient) The only critique is that you'll come out smelling like food a bit :) read more

I'm in love with this place. Just a mere hop skip and jump away from Leather Lane (the clothes ladies, the clothes!) is this charming little Vietnamese restaurant with subtly sanded down chairs and tasteful statement wallpaper. Not only is the food really really tasty and very well priced, but the staff are so friendly and the atmosphere really nice and chilled out, making it a great place to eat in with friends or otherwise. (Note: they do offer takeaway, but not delivery... yet). I was first inspired to come in here, because they said they made Vietnamese baguettes. Now, for anyone who has ever been to Vietnam, you know what I'm talkin' bout. Those crunchy baguettes are like air-filled heaven-sent goodness and are just awesome. So looking for a taste of that, brought me here. However, I haven't actually tried the baguettes yet, as I have been far too busy sampling the pho, bun noodles and other things on the menu. All of which are scrumptious and mouthwatering good. The food tastes like it's more authentic than say Pho, and dare I say it, I seem to have realigned my loyalty to this place. Plus the portions are reasonably sized and the fresh juices are yummy. It's definitely my new favourite Vietnamese place. read more

I'm a seasoned lover of all things Pho. I've kept restaurants in business SINGLE HANDEDLY from ordering so much Pho. I was not impressed. I can't pinpoint what it was. The company (in the form of a huge group of Yelpers) was excellent. The food just didn't tickle my satisfaction bone. The raw beef pho was just adequate, nothing that knocked my socks off. It was better once I added a huge amount of hot sauce, but that could just be me. The smoothie I had was good but rather small for the price. The ambience of the place was more suited for a daytime cafe or coffeeshop instead of an actual Pho restaurant. Meh, as the two stars label says...I've experienced better. read more

Fair warning: I don't think this review will be useful for non-vegetarians. I have eaten here twice, once for lunch (when I had one of their vegetarian sandwiches) and the second time at a Yelp event for dinner (when I had the stir fried tofu). The sandwich was nice, the price reasonable, but in the end neither had a "wow" feeling, nor more important a sense of fulfillment. Basically we left, and ended up having another full lunch within two hours, which does tends to mitigate the cheapest of the original sandwich. The dinner options for those who don't eat meat are very limited. None of the Pho's can be made vegetarian (though the manager reassured me that this would change within a month or two - stay tuned). The tofu dish I ended up being really quite nasty, and not something I would want to repeat. The pluses here are a pleasant dining room, and very friendly and attentive service. The restaurant is quite small so it would be wise to book if you are going as a group. The meat dishes looked good to me, so I'd be very happy to update this review when the vegetarian options catch-up. read more

Like other reviewers, I popped into Banh Mi Bay with some of the lovely Yelp Crew. I had been looking at it longingly while on many a bus trip and was happy when it was chosen as a gathering place. That night, the company shined much brighter than the food. I started my meal with a pork and prawn spring roll and was left wondering what was missing. Not enough mint? I don't know...but it wasn't that burst of freshness that I usually associate with spring rolls. I expected the raw beef pho to turn my ideas about the place around, but alas, it didn't. The noodles were too thick for my taste and the broth was just...lacking. The dish was so ho hum, even after the addition of copius sriracha, that I didn't even finish it. And I'm a girl who has no problem lifting a bowl of pho to my lips to make sure no broth goes to waste. Oh well...back to the hunt for the perfect pho. At least the conversation wasn't bland. read more

I'd been dying to check this place out after all the Yelp raves but meh... Maybe it was an off day for them? But I ordered the banh canh (udon noodles with crab meat) and it was really salty - I pretty much downed my carrot and ginger juice in one go. Maybe I should've gone for the pho? Will give this a go again and re-write this review if necessary, but so far, not impressed.... read more

Best Vietnamese sandwiches I've had in London. Definitely was missing the banh mi after exiting Northern California (noticed many other Yelpers felt similarly!) but have now had my fix. The Vietnamese baguettes--made in-house--are not to be missed. Their French baguettes aren't bad either, but the Vietnamese ones are what you really want. Fresh, fresh, fresh, and slightly crispy on the outside, soft and doughy on the inside. Make sure you try a sandwich that has pate! I'm not at all a big pate fan, but something about the pate here has my taste buds singing. I don't even know what usually seasons pate and have no idea what Banh Mi Bay does to theirs, but it is a must-try. The grilled meats are all nice and tender, so you basically can't go wrong, whichever one you choose. Can't comment much on the hot food, unfortunately, except to say that my dinner companion enjoyed her noodles (can't remember which one). Still, this place is worth checking out for the banh mi alone, which is only right for an establishment called Banh Mi Bay. read more

This place received many of my hard earned coins being so close to campus. Lunch for a fiver is the way to go when you're a struggling uni student AND sriracha!! They also had vietnamese coffee for about the same price as the coffee places around the area, but much stronger. Also elixer much sought after by uni students. If I planned it correctly, I could have dinner, and a post dinner coffee all waiting for me when I got out of class... I was always quite chuffed at my efficiency. I did get fancy a few times and actually sit in, usually pretty full for dinner. It should be known that sitting in is about 2 quid more than taking out and I believe it's a similar menu. They do have apps and such that aren't on their board of course, but same thing for the most part. Pho is quite good as well. When a place messes up pho, I don't know if I can trust anything else on their menu, but they do quite well here. Many good eats and convos had here. read more

£3.50 a sandwich in Farringdon? Yes please! Here you'll find bánh mì made pretty damn well and their tofu bun noodle salad... well, move over Pho, this is my new favourite place. The only thing they fall down on is their Viet iced coffees, again these are not strong enough and far too sweet. At lunch time, you'll see a line out the door, and so there sound be - this place rocks. With Grey's Inn Fields just across the road, it makes this the most perfect summer lunchtime spot. You grab your yummy, cheap food and head on over to the park. Forget eating at your desk - for 45 minutes you'll feel like you're on holiday with fabulous food and sunshine. A winner all round. read more

It's...ok. I always feel pretty healthy when I have Vietnamese food (brothy soup! Clean noodles! Pickled veg!) (NB: don't correct me if this is totally wrong). Banh Mi Bay is not a _bad_ option. But, well...it's not the best, either. It's fast, and it's fresh, and it's really affordable. Tofu bun noodle salad is a good choice. Pho is PHOINE (fine? Yeah?). It's fine. I appreciate that when you get takeaway that all the individual things are separately packaged up (bean sprouts in a little baggie, hoisin in a little cup). They have specials of the week but, otherwise, it's a pretty stripped down menu of Vietnamese go-tos (spring rolls, range of buns, rice dishes, phos and banh mi). Which is fine for someone as indecisive as I am. Not a place I'd ever make as a destination spot, but totally fine as an option if you happen to find yourself hungry and standing in front of it. Yelp note: significant discounts if you get take-away so, on a nice day, do so: many great nearby options for a picnic! read more

This is my go to lunch spot in the Holborn area. Amazing for takeaway in summer which can be enjoyed in the haven of the park across the road. Caramel shredded pork and the chicken satay are my favourites with noodle salad. A wholesome, healthy treat to pick you up. read more

Well colour me unenthused. I've walked by here a number of times and was so excited to try it out. A banh mi place so close to my house... brilliant! Sadly no.This place is mediocre, at best. Cold Vietnamese summer rolls with no real flavour. A bone dry baguette with three prawns and some rocket in it. So hard I actually broke a tooth on it, I'm not kidding. I've had better sandwiches at Subway. From the reports around the table, no one else was that enthused either. Banh mi Bay is alcohol free, but they have lots of juices. Just no booze. It really is a glorified sandwich shop. If you want banh mi, try that stall in Broadway Market. read more

Cute little Vietnamese cafe with decent bánh mì and other cafe dishes. I'm not sure about the sea-green coloured walled. The place is pretty packed during lunch with both eat-in diners and takeaway customers. With only a few tables (around 10), it's more of a takeaway place. If you're lucky enough to get a table, the service is pretty good. Things I've tried that I liked: 1. com dac biet (special rice dish) The cha (meatloaf-like) is well-prepared, the "bi" is a bit on the dry side, and so is the rice. The dressing makes up for it. The lemongrass grilled pork is nicely done. Definitely an overall good dish. 2. bánh mì Probably the best I've had in London. It's a filled baguette with good filling. Recommend for takeaway. 3. Ca phe sua da Vietnamese iced-coffee. They use condensed milk (good!) and it's quite close to what I'm used to in Little Saigon, California. If you're looking for Vietnamese food around this area, this is the one to try. read more

Only been the one time, but the caramel pork viet baguette was most impressive, proper portions of meat, mooli, coriander, chilli, carrot etc and £3.50 - you pay more for some of the stuff in M&S and it doesnt stand up to this place If your in the area check it out for lunch, I will be back to go through the rest of the menu... read more

Banh Mi Bay: I really want to like you, but you're just not quite hitting it. The pho is more or less on point -a little flat - but they definitely get props for offering a vegetarian version which is something you don't see too often. The banh mi are decent too, but could be a little more generous with the fillings. My lady had the vegetarian bun tau hu chay the last time we went but was unimpressed - they'd gone too light on the mint and coriander. Compared to say a grilled pork version, a tofu version is always gonna have a bit more work to do on the flavour front so there's no excuse for holding back on the elements that would give it a fighting chance. Service can be a bit patchy as well - if it's busy be prepared to get your wave on. Overall, Banh Mi Bay is OK, but it won't blow your mind. Price-wise it's relatively cheap but eating in nudges the price up enough to make you wonder whether you're being played, just a little bit. A little bit of extra effort and thought and these guys could smash it. read more

Really disappointing - went with a big party, All the food came at different times (15 min gap between two) and ordered coffees that just did not arrived even after asking twice. Not the best atmosphere either, wouldn't bother. read more