It's so peaceful, clean and beautiful! We love camping here and so relaxing!! There is tent or RV sites, no hookups but there is a pay dump station if needed. The camp hosts are so nice and friendly. Thank you! read more

I've camped here a few times and it's always a good experience. Not too far from LA and Highway 38 is a much easier drive than Highway 18 going to Big Bear in my opinion. Flush toilets and free showers available (both are generally clean with adequate hot water to shower with, and you'll see the "off duty" host clean them every day, but their condition will be highly dependent on your neighbors). There are a few hiking trail options during your stay: from inside the campground, if you follow the trail by the entrance/the hosts' RVs, to the right, a quick scurry across the highway, there's a mile long hike up to Jenks Lake. If you go left, you'll go through a few other campsites, then an amphitheater, and then an overlook area with a picnic table. There are a few loops in the trees behind the campgrounds, but I'm not sure where they lead as I just turned around eventually. The east loop (1-22) feels more spread out and private although there aren't really too many decent places to hang a hammock in most spots. The west loop (23+) feels a little closer together (but also not bad) with a lot more trees for shade and to hang hammocks. The west loop also tends to have more RVs and generator users for whatever reason though. I've mostly stayed on the east loop and would suggest bringing a canopy for shade. Even though the temperature may not seem that high, the sun is HOT, and is a little unbearable around 1 PM - 3 PM. Surprisingly, bugs are mostly a non issue even in the summer. Bundles of firewood for sale if conditions allow. $10 a bundle as of 07/2025 cash only. Expect each bundle to last about an hour. The host will go around selling however many fits on their cart or you can just drive your car up to the active host and fill your trunk. Big Bear is also a 30 minute drive away. read more

Peaceful, Clean, and Convenient Getaway My husband and I decided to try this campsite since it always seemed to have availability and was just a quick 2-hour drive away. We were pleasantly surprised! The toilets were very clean, and the free hot showers were such a nice bonus--especially after a day of hiking and relaxing outdoors. Each campsite had a picnic table and a fire pit, which made it easy to cook and enjoy meals comfortably. The campground is surrounded by tall, full-grown trees that provide plenty of shade and a relaxing atmosphere. It was quiet and serene throughout our stay--perfect for unwinding. We especially loved hearing the blue jays singing during the day. There's also a trail that leads straight to Jenks Lake if you're in the mood for a peaceful hike or some fishing. To top it all off, the camp hosts were great--very nice, helpful, and approachable. Overall, this spot exceeded our expectations. It's peaceful, well-maintained, and a perfect weekend escape. We'll definitely be back! read more

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Safe and clean. Amazing staff made rounds frequently to maintain safety and order. Clear instructions for parking and camp site basics/ground rules. Sufficient showers and bathrooms. We were lucky that weekend. The groundskeeper confirmed that we had a good/tidy bunch so we avoided disgustingness that sometimes happens at public stalls. You get my drift. In October, it's so cool in the early AM and PM even if in lower elevation areas were experiencing a heat wave. If you're visiting in the fall, bring lots of layers and be prepared for the cold. read more

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Barton Flatts July 2022 (dog friendly!) We took off to Barton Flatts campground situated in the San Bernardino Forest 7/7 - 7/10. We'll definitely be back here! Hopefully we get site #47 again! The RV was shaded, except for the morning which was welcomed since it was cold in the morning. The rest of the day the trees blocked the RV keeping it from the summer sun. Also, the picnic table and campfire ring were all right next to the RV; many campgrounds all the campsite stuff is behind the motorhome. Personally, I like it right outside the RV door to get in kitchen and/or easy basement access. Just a little over an hour away from Palm Springs and BAM...cool temps and huge trees. July weather: 80s daytime/50s nighttime. Dogs welcome and must be kept on leash at all times. The asphalt to park the RV on was very level. I wish I would've taken pics of the levels when I parked because it's so rare to just park and be done. Well, then we decided to move the RV over a few feet. STILL LEVEL! Honestly, this is a great first place to test out Boondocking. We figured if we just couldn't cut it then drive home. No hookups. Water spigots throughout the campground. Fresh water fill up and dump at entrance to campground ($10). They do have showers and restrooms with real toilets. There's also a little market about a mile down the road just in case we needed something. In short, it was nice to have the "safety nets" if we needed them but we did fine without. I recommend any first time boondockers to try it out here. We hiked over to two different camp grounds (forget their names). Paths were marked clearly and easy hikes. Everyone was respectful of quiet times, even with a (mostly) full campground. Lots of squirrels running and blue jays flying around. We saw a couple coyotes wandering around one of the mornings but they weren't too close to the campsite. Only reason we knew they were there was because our Great Pyr (livestock guard breed) picked up on them immediately. *chuckle* Candy Mae and Simon, the camp hosts, were very friendly and approachable. They checked on us daily and brought wood around for sale. Bathrooms were very clean and stocked. We drove up to Jenks Lake. You can make the walk to the lake but we chose to drive. The water level was low. Still, we enjoyed our time walking the trails around the lake. Some parts of the trail were shaded. However, Jackson wanted to sniff around the water and get in the mud a bit so I indulged him a bit. We enjoyed walking out on the wood plank fishing pier for a better look into the water. We could see fish but I don't think anyone was getting bites on their line. We enjoyed our lunch at one of the different picnic areas. The tables were spaced out well that were shaded. The trails and picnic areas at Jenks Lake were clean. A good amount of parking in the parking lot. For sure we would've got the 25 footer parked in there without issue. I think there was additional parking before the Jenks Lake main entrance that larger RVs could park in but double check that if it applies to you. Looking forward to more trips up here! read more

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Ok first of all the campground is great, the sites are super roomy and the hikes are awesome. The hike to Jenks lake from the campground is overall 3 mi round trip. The bathrooms are clean and flushable toilets. The showers, although we personally didn't use, one of our friends did and he said only one had the hot water regulated. The others were scalding hot or super cold! Now the cons: the camp hosts, specifically Candy May and Simon, who hosted while we were there were straight up irritating and Debbie Downers! I get it, they have to maintain a certain standard according to the rangers. That's all good and fine. But as an example, we were told to stop TALKING as we walked in the road to our trailer! TALKING?! Seriously?!! There are way to many instances to recount. They were on everyone's case the whole weekend and cussed like sailors and I'm pretty sure they were high the whole time! I'll include a pic of just how anal they were...and WRONG....and when I brought it to her attention she had nothing to say. Overall, it's a great campground just be mindful of the Nazi-esque hosts...they can really ruin a great weekend! read more

Barton Flats Campground - Ranger told me my back tire was half on the pavement and my tire was going to break down the pavement and I would be fined! - Campgrounds Near Me - San Bernardino, California

Beautiful location, with amazing views everywhere. I met a group of fellow hammock campers and we enjoyed the far corner of the campground to ourselves. The campground filled up on the weekend and I suspect it is like this most of the time, especially throughout the summer. I assume the showers were great, but there were plumbing problems while we were there and they were closed most of the time. Can't blame the campground for that, it was out of their control. Running water is great, but there is a long walk to the restrooms if you're not camping near the road. It would be nice if they added another facility closer to the back. The camphosts were awesome, patrolling often, keeping the noise level down, and making our extended weekend an enjoyable one. They earned five stars just for themselves. read more

This is an awesome campground. Most spots have great shade. Lots of trees. Most cites were fairly flat and easy access to non-potable water. The highlight was the facilities and the camp hosts. The bathrooms were the cleanest I've ever seen and the hosts really went it out of their way to help us when our booking got mixed up. Would highly recommend! read more

When my family and I arrived at Barton Flats, we were looking for some sort of check-in office, but all you will find is a trailer (that blends in with the others), but has sign next to it that says "camp host." You know your there because you will also see the stacks of firewood for sale. There wasn't anyone around to check-in with, the trailer was empty. The campground staff is driving around on their golf cart doing maintenance, or delivering firewood at $8 a stack in the evening. I finally ran into a fine gentleman by the name of Chuck. He told me to just back-in to my camp site, get settled in, and he would be right over. 10 minutes later Chuck comes by, asks my name, gives me a parking pass, hands me the rules, points out the bear box and tells me to have a good time. It was a quick, painless encounter. Fastest check-in of my life lol. We stayed 3 days, 2 nights. This is not your party all night type of campground. Most people are in bed between 10 p.m. and midnight. We didn't hear any bears, but we could hear people walking at night taking bathroom breaks. One night we did hear what sounded like a dog barking wildly, but we heard another camp goer say it might of been a wolf. It was definitely not howling like a typical coyote. We stayed at site 6 thanks to another Yelp review that I read. It was a nice site with potable water conveniently located at the front of the site, and clean bathrooms closely located behind us. Each site comes with a bear box, picnic table and fire pit, but there aren't any electrical outlets. There are a total of three sets of bathrooms on the campground, but only the center bathroom has the showers. There are no trash cans at your camp site, so make sure bring trash bags to throw away at night into the dumpster. Jenks Lake (what is left of it) is about a 1-hour uphill (400 ft. elevation) hike, and roughly a little under 2 miles. My family and I loved our first time at Barton Flats campground. Kudos to the staff Chuck and Debbie for keeping the place clean! We can't wait for our next trip back. read more

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Went camping here mid-week last week, and overall it was a lovely trip! Barton Flats is booked out on the weekends for a while so consider that if you're trying to look for a campsite then. Most of the campsites were taken, since everyone is trying to get out of the city due to Covid. Our campsite was pretty shady and towards the back of the loop. This campground was more luxurious than most that I have been to, due to the flushing toilets! I heard they have showers there too, but they were closed due to the virus. The set up was really nice, with relatively smooth, not rocky ground to lay our tents on and a well-maintained fire pit with grate in order to cook our meals. Around 10 PM or 11 PM, we could hear coyotes howling in the distance! I actually really liked that, it was really cool to hear. But I'm also glad they provided locked storage space for our food. read more

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Very clean campground even after hurricane Hilary, very friendly camp hosts very beautiful scenery only problem there were lots of kids screaming but that's just personal I'm sure it's mostly quiet read more

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I have camped here before, it always provided what's needed for a good fun and enjoyable weekend camping. Bathrooms available and clean, showers were good plenty if hot water too, sure will be back again. read more

Woodsy campground very clean camp managers on site and patrol the area camp managers Elise,Lane & Cathy they make things here run smoothly keeping the traffic in control the noise level down they will bring you fire wood keep the bathroom nice and clean they keep this camp looking nice and running smoothly. Lots of blue jays Jenks lake in walking distance but I ain't going to lie its a little over a mile up hill in a zig zag we had like 4 kids under 6 years so it was a challenge but they made it We had spot 42 for a group of 16 had to book on line didn't really like this space no trees and in the sun but there is better spots the camp manager Elise gave us a map of her favorite spots. Like 45 minutes driving 1 hour away from big bear we came in June so it was not to cold at night we will definitely come back read more

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Great camping! There is drinking water, an equipped toilet, grilling places and a table with benches at each place Lots of wonderful free places There are a lot of squirrels running around, they are not afraid of people at all We fed them directly from our hands and squirrels climbed right onto the table trying to steal our food It takes about 15 minutes to walk to the nearest trail with a view of the beautiful mountains We really liked everything read more

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We camped with a big group of family in sites 44 and 45. The sites were spacious and shady. The whole campground filled up by the weekend, but people were quiet and the place was very clean. Special thanks to the campground host, Bob and his partner. They were both friendly and helpful, kept and eye on things without being intrusive, and made us want to come back again soon. We were lucky, with clear skies and good weather. There weren't even many bugs! One little thing: at night, the noise of cars passing on the highway nearby was a little loud. If that might bother you, bring a pair of earplugs. read more

My family and I had a great experience here. I was adamant at first when I met the manager, she definitely has a firm personality. However, I have zero complaints. She was never rude and you can tell they take pride in the camp site. It's the cleanest camp site I have ever been to all around. I feel she's had some rule breakers and so her strong personality is a response to that. We had no issues and can't wait to return. We hiked Up To Jenks lake, rode our bikes, and had glow in the dark dance party with our kids. I loved going to a clean bathroom and no smells, how many can say that about other camp bathrooms? Dates are scarce so don't book last minute! read more

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The current camp host is super friendly. She does a wonderful job making sure all campsites and clean and that campers are following rules. Barton Flats Campground has amenities such as showers and bathrooms. The campground is family campground. Prices range from $29-$60. Each campground have a fire pit and plenty of shade. Fire wood is sold by the camp host. We enjoyed our one night stay and hiked the nearby trail to Jenks Lake. read more

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We stayed at Barton Flats site #20 which is a larger site on the first inside loop. It got a little sunny during the day, but it is a spacious site and you can just move the chairs as the shade moves. For an inside loop site we were happy with it. Most of the really good sites are on the back loop up next to the hills. With that said site 20 is not bad at all. We had an excellent time and experienced no problems, especially with the camp hosts. Elise came up and greeted us and was very respectful when doing so. She does go over the rules, but that is part of running a tidy campground. We are a family of 4, with a 19 year old and an 8 year old. Most of the other reviews that I am reading are a surprise to me because she was more than accommodating. We had a couple of drinks but followed the rules and there were no issues. The Apple fire was burning on the other side of the mountain and there was a chance that it could've reached the rim around midnight. There were huge plumes of smoke rising to the east of us. She told us that if they heard anything from Forestry Service that she would be sure to let everybody know. It turned out that we were okay and the fire never went up the ridge. We hiked up to Jenks Lake the 2nd day and it is beautiful up there. The hike up is semi-strenous in a few areas but is not that tough overall. It was about a 40 minute hike each way. We will be returning again in a month or so. Just wanted to leave a review with our experience which was a very good one. read more

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Beautiful campground!! Spacious and clean. We'll definitely be back here again! Can't wait!

We had an incredible weekend at Barton Flats! We stayed at Site 6. The Camp host Elise and Layne were friendly, gracious and accommodating We will absolutely be back real soon!! read more

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Nice campground in the San Bernardino national forest. Clean bathrooms and showers. Camp sites are a bit too close to each other for my liking. Overall a very nice campground. read more

Barton Flats Campground - Campsite #18 - Campgrounds Near Me - San Bernardino, California

Barton Flats Campground is located in a plain within the San Bernardino National Forest that shares its namesake, the Barton Flats. According to a placard along the adjacent Rio Monte hiking trail, the first car that made it up the mountain to Barton Flats did so in 1913 and by the 1930s a water system was installed that provided water fountains, flushable toilets, and hot showers. This led to an influx of visitors to Barton Flats and the surrounding campgrounds (San Gorgonio, Heart Bar, etc.) History lesson aside, Barton Flats is an intimate campground with about 50 sites for tent camping. It consists of two loops that resemble a Figure 8. Centrally-located is the main restroom with showers and each loop has its own respective toilet-only restrooms. Water faucets are scattered across the site and the campground is serviced by friendly and elderly hosts that do a great job of maintaining the restrooms and refilling the teepee paper because we need the teepee for our bungholes. Located 2 hours from Los Angeles, this campground is far away enough from civilization that you won't have cellular phone service, but you will be able to take showers and flush your poo. The stars seem to just spill all over and really make you think about how beautiful nature and the universe really is when we aren't staring at our stupid phones and laptops. Camping really makes me reflective and helps me appreciate life and nature. And as the Dalai Lama once said about man, "we sacrifice our health to make money, then we sacrifice money to recuperate health... then we are so anxious about the future that we do not enjoy the present... the result being that man does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived." Sorry about the tangent... too much time in the woods! So... each site has an elongated picnic table and a fire pit with firewood sold at $7 a bundle by the camp hosts. Also, there are ants, flies, and other gnarly insects, but heck, we are invading their homes so who are we to whine? Pine trees abound at the campground along with squirrels, birds, and lizards. While dogs are allowed, keep them on a leash since you don't want your little lapdog to get swooped up by a hawk. The campground is nice and there are a ton of things to do in the area. As mentioned before, you can trek along the Rio Monte Trail or take a hike to either Jenks Lake or the Santa Ana River. You can also checkout the Greyback Amphitheater (driving distance) up Highway 38 where the rangers have nightly programs during the summer (around 7:30 PM) and if you're really lucky you might be bestowed by a guest appearance by Smokey Bear. Whatever you decide to do, Barton Flats is a nice campground that has a little of everything. The family stayed at Site #20 which had partial shade and was within walking distance to the restrooms. Could have had more shade though. * The campground is on the left (north) side of Highway 38 and since there is no separate left turn lane on Highway 38, prepare to signal in advance so you don't get rear-ended. A tip would be to get ready once you pass the Barton Flats Visitor's Center (approximately ¾ of a mile before the campground). Photo the Wifey Took of Campsite #20: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/barton-flats-campground-barton-flats?select=2ljaeKEzBsBEqg8fW9COHg#kl9Of2zeEHUgWIh_figl6g read more

Barton Flats Campground - Placard along Rio Monte Trail - Campgrounds Near Me - San Bernardino, California

Sometimes don't want to post a great review of places we've been because I'm selfish and want these places to remain available. But I'll be magnanimous and say this place isn't eastern sierra's but it's much closer and except for the very limited lakes and creeks still beautiful forest and coupled with the wonderful hosts makes it a great getaway from the heat. Jenks Lake is a 10 minute drive or an about 1&1/2 hours hike which is kinda tough for 70 year olds like us. But with the help of Bob one of the host who gave me some very good tips on fishing there it's a great spot to spend some time. There's a country store about 10 minutes westbound on 38 that'll help with provisions. Pricey but expected. 12.99 for 20bag of ice. We were there for 5 nights and bought 6 bags. Just don't stay in 14 lol. That's ours. read more

Place is clean and family oriented. If you like to hike, there are several trails that are easily accessible from the campground. Bring games as it can get very boring staring at a campsite. Jenks lake is little more than a green puddle right now due to a recent fire and lack of rain. I would give more stars but the staff seemed to get emotional quickly if you are up past 10 talking. We were not yelling, or playing music.....just talking. We were asked to whisper after 10 so we didn't disturb other campers. I found that to be ridiculous as the road noise and coyotes were louder than us. read more

I have been coming here with my family for years and it has always been a great experience. Sites are spacious and roomy, restrooms are clean and well maintained. read more

The camp hosts Elise and Lon go way above and beyond!! They helped me set up our tent when it was being a problem, loaned me instant coffee so I wouldn't have to go to the store and also helped me inflate our air mattress when our battery operated pump went caput. It meant so much to me that they would reach out and help strangers and also because my husband is disabled. I only wish there were more people like Elise and Lon. God bless the two of you for your kindness. read more

Barton Flats Campground - Problem with our tent! - Campgrounds Near Me - San Bernardino, California

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I absolutely had the best time camping trip this weekend. I have been to Barton Flats once before in fact almost exactly one year ago this weekend. The host at the campground are friendly honest hard-working folks who I admire. In addition to coming back to an awesome campground I was really looking forward to seeing our hosts again. And without disappointment I was pleasantly surprised when they remembered me, greeted me with a smile, and took the time to have a conversation with me. In today's society when service industry workers or people who are helping other people are often disrespected and expected to go above and beyond without any appreciation. This couple rise to the challenge with the same values I share. The rules are simple and easy to follow which makes for a pleasant experience for the entire campground. The campground is clean and maintained. I also noticed a general respect from other campers which can only be attributed to our hosts with the most! See ya next year! If not sooner I think I will end up owning Layne a cold libation due to his awesomeness! I will make the drive to deliver before our next camp out. And special thanks to Elise, you are one of the good ones. See ya next time! Chris. read more

Barton Flats Campground - Campgrounds Near Me - San Bernardino, California

I am giving this place 2 stars because the male camp host is very pleasant. But the lady. Ohhh noo! Please do not go to this campsite if you are interested in sitting around the camp fire, making s'mores and having good conversation. The lady is very rude. Interrupted our fun a couple of times to say people are complaining about the "noise." In reality i think she was bothered. Sitting up in her camper with nothing to do. She's def a warden and makes this campsite a no fun zone. If you want go to camping and be in bed by 8pm. Lights out! This is your place read more

Love this area but can't camp here anymore. I was reminded why I don't camp here or San Gorgonio. Big A$$ 5th wheel next to us ran there freaking generator all day and evening till 10pm. Yes, the jerk does have the RIGHT to disrupt the camping experience for everyone around them. If it's not big A$$ RVs it's over crowded. Ridiculous! read more

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I'll keep this short: Camp host ( Karen for sure) is a terrible person with no respect for guests. I do admit that our group was a bit loud in the evening, but never after "quiet time." Camp host scolded us after we shut down music and remained near the fire ring. She argued we were still being loud. The worst part is she berated us like children. Damn Karen had nothing else to do, but make us feel horrible for no reason. Camping SHOULD NOT be micromanaged like at Barton Flats or HeartBar. If this is your first camping experience, you're better off at Lytle Creek. Haha read more

Arrived just after 4th of July 2020. I'd go again, and really liked the size of the sites and cleanliness of restrooms. Appreciate the strict camp host rules to keep the place family friendly. Bought wood onsite. The showers weren't open at the time. We brought our dog and were warned by the site host about squirrels in the area that have the plague, which only meant we had to keep the dog out of holes in the ground. (Long story short, infected squirrels die in those holes, leaving infected fleas that a dog can pick up if sniffing into the wrong hole). Sounds bad and gross, but was easy to avoid. No big deal. Stayed in 049 and it was WAY TOO SUNNY, from 7:30a-5:30p there was almost no way to escape the sun in that site. Many or most other sites weren't bad at all. I'd choose a site on opposite side of the loop next time - more shade and further from road. My kids loved fishing at Jenks lake. We skipped the hike and drove. Being there at off peak times was best to avoid the crowds. read more

This is a cool little campground that is only 30 minutes or so from the bottom of the mountain. I stayed at site 31 and I liked the location of it and was partly shaded. Any of the sites that are on that outside loop look pretty good as they back up right to the forest and are farther from the highway. Bathrooms seemed pretty clean and the site managers were on top of their job. They have multiple places spread out with running water. I will be returning in the future maybe another try a different site near 31. Firewood was $8 a bundle and they delivered to my site after check in. read more

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Greeting okay by host, space clean, but toilets rapidly not working properly and leaving us with no solution

Great campground! We took our Young Adults Ministry this last weekend and had a great time together. Beautiful setting, clean grounds and restrooms. The camp hosts Elise and her husband were the kindest people. Don't listen to a previous review. They are lovely people, doing their job to keep the campground in order, so that it is a place for all to enjoy!! Keep up the great work you two!! Rick and Tami Nelson read more

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Four of us camped at Barton Flats for 2 days and overall it was a very great camping experience! Our camping area was a very good size and had a good amount of privacy. The campground hosts (Layne and Elise) were fantastic. They gave us the layout of the campground, the rules, and made sure we had everything we needed (we forgot a can opener and they let us use on of theirs). Each campsite had a picnic table, fire pit/BBQ, storage locker, and plenty of room to set up some tents. Hoping to comeback sometime soon. If you are looking for a nice campground that's not too crowded, Barton Flats is a very good choice! read more

My husband and I had a really relaxing and peaceful 4 days in Barton Flats Campground. This was our 3rd visit and it is such a beautiful place to camp. We were at campsite # 33, by far the best site. Shade, restrooms and a large site than most. The temps were very comfortable and a nice breeze. My happy place away from home. read more

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My boyfriend and I camped here last weekend. The campground is beautiful and well cared for. The hosts were friendly and helpful. It's not huge - so expect to be somewhat close to your neighbors. However, the spots were decently sized and flat. Reservations are $29/night with a $10 reservation fee if booked online. Firewood bundles are sold by the camp host for $8/night. There are flush toilets and showers available. We enjoyed the short walk to San Gorgonio campground during golden hour for a pretty view of the gorge. The next morning, we walked to Jenks Lake - a beautiful hike that's less than 2.5 miles. I would highly recommend both! So glad I got to enjoy one last camping trip before the winter season. Hoping to come back next year! read more

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Amazing campground! We stayed here over Labor Day weekend and had an amazing time. The campground was relatively full but you couldn't tell - everyone was respectful of quiet hours and the spots were spaced apart perfectly. We were in site #2 with a 26 ft toy hauler - plenty of space to back in with a big spot for the table and exploring behind the site. While there aren't hookups, the onsite dump station was convenient (though I wish it was free for guests). We hiked to Jenks Lake (there are a few nice walking and biking trails) and the campground was even close enough for a quick drive to Big Bear. The only mildly negative things: the $7 charge for an extra vehicle (the grandparents visited for 2 hours only) and the bees, bees galore! But we loved this campground and will definitely be back - seems like a great place to go with friends. read more

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Our family had a great stay here over Memorial Day Weekend. We only were able to get a reservation for Friday night, but the camp hosts, Candy Mae and Simon, went out of their way to help us find another site for the next two nights. The campground is beautiful and kept very clean. Great campground and super helpful hosts read more

I really wanted to take a shower after a long day of hiking. But all the showers were down. I was hoping they would discount the price, but no. read more