My mother's experience with Dr. John Kaspar and WakeMed Urology was nothing short of unacceptable. After her initial surgery, she was left dealing with extremely difficult and stressful circumstances that dramatically affected her quality of life. Instead of feeling supported by the physician and healthcare system we trusted, we were left feeling completely on our own during a time when proper medical guidance and follow-up were critical. What was most frustrating was the complete lack of accountability and follow-through. At our last appointment, Dr. Kaspar specifically informed us that his office would be reaching out to schedule the next follow-up appointment. That never happened. No phone call, no appointment, no communication, and no explanation. For a practice responsible for caring for post-surgical patients, this level of neglect and lack of coordination is deeply concerning. Throughout this entire experience, we felt as though my mother was treated more like a chart number than a patient. When a family entrusts a surgeon with the care of a loved one, they expect not only medical expertise but also professionalism, communication, compassion, and a commitment to ensuring proper recovery. Unfortunately, our experience with Dr. Kaspar and WakeMed fell far short of those expectations. The combination of the difficult outcome following surgery and the complete failure to follow through on promised post-operative care destroyed our confidence in this provider and the practice. We would never return and cannot recommend Dr. Kaspar or WakeMed Urology based on our experience. Patients deserve far better communication and continuity of care than what we received. read more

I was recently a patient at WakeMed Cary Hospital. I was seen in the ER/ED on a Wednesday night, admitted to the hospital the next morning, and released the following Tuesday night. My experience with each staff member was superb! Everyone- my doctors, nurses, nursing assistants, lab technicians , the folks who delivered my lunch trays, (and anyone in between) treated me professionally, with kindness, compassion and respect. I really want to give this hospital 5 stars but I can't due to one major issue. The bed, precisely the mattress was horrible! I was admitted with an issue concerning my spine, yet the mattress on my bed actually made my pain worse. There was a visible dent or "wallowed out" hole in this mattress which caused me enough discomfort that it interfered with my ability to sleep, and added to my pain level. I mentioned this to several staff members, and the reply was always the same, " That's what everyone says. All the beds here are in poor shape." A nurse gave me a small cushion to fit in the hole in hopes of helping the situation, which improved it very little. They were in the process of trying to find a better bed, but I was released before it happened. I am not a person who complains much, but I realized that if the reply was always-" most of the bed are like this," Then there are so many other patients suffering during their stay at WakeMed Cary Hospital, something must be done to correct the problem. I sincerely hope that WakeMed's Supply Chain Executive Director will take this to heart. read more

Horrible experience last night. Had a terrible migraine 10/10 pain . This Dr was so rude and ignorant. He asked me what works for me I told him my usual migraine cocktail that I've had a few times there and he denied it acting like I'm a junkie when I'm just trying to get relief.. he raised his voice at me while I cried and wouldn't even give me iv fluids or nausea meds. He needs his license taken away . Very unprofessional. read more

WakeMed Cary Hospital - Hospitals Near Me - Cary, North Carolina

Checked in to the emergency room. They were very efficient and we were in and out in under 2 hours. Staff is very caring.

I was rushed to Wake Med Cary Hospital on October 4, 2025, I was struggling to breath. I was diagnosed with two massive blood clots in my lungs. The good news is I have made a complete recovery. Without the quick action of the doctors in the ER I would not be here today. My care was exceptional. Every one of the doctors and staff were professional and caring and knew just what to do to save my life. I can't say enough good things of these professionals. Nancy Klein read more

We went to WakeMed, Cary this morning for my Wife's condition. After several hours of waiting and seeing those patients, who had been seen by a doctor, be returning to the same waiting room to join us. Some were called back again, only to be returned to join us in waiting. While watching this happen and my Wife not being seen the first time, my Wife determined that she had to return home without being seen by a doctor. So, she went back to the check-in desk and sake would her insurance be charged if she left. She was told No. then, we left. Something is really wrong with WakeMed Emergency Room Procedures. I wish I could give it Zero Stars in this Review. read more

Awful is the only way to explain it. Sat in waiting room in wheelchair for two hours throwing up before being called back. Then I got a $3500 bill after insurance. Insane. What can you improve? Umm everything. I would rather die than go back here read more

Medical hospital that offers a great experience and atmosphere. The staff is professional, helpful, efficient and friendly.

I was at wakemed Cary for a pacemaker and an overnight stay in the heart and vascular depth. I was treated very well and staff was very professional and knowledgeable. Everyone that cared for me was so compassionate and professional. Dr. Netrebko was awesome and professional. I thank the staff for all they did for me.​ read more

It's an imperfect system. Some of it is flat out weird. I've been here a day already. Acid reflux is a thing now with me and it created an issue. It happened once before. I went a whole day miserable at home with stomach issues, nausea, vomiting, discomfort, cold sweats. Acid reflux is more than most people think. So I came here a mess. The emergency room was clear. Ya'll done being sick? No Covid, no nothing? They took me to a "special" waiting room. I waited there for an hour. Periodically, someone would come in to test me until I was taken to a bed. The bed was skinny and terribly uncomfortable. The room was small. I had bad abdominal pain and asked for help with it. I did, after all, come to a hospital. I could've rode it out at home again. Their response was "Nah, you won't get any pain relief here!" And that was that. Until the Gastro doctor came and assured me differently. The Heart doctor did the same. When I reiterated this to my nurses, they said "Nah, you won't get any pain relief here!" They were right. I went 20 hours in pain. In a hospital. I spent the day in that claustrophobic room watching "South Park" and constantly getting tested. Now and then I would get an update. Around 8pm they moved me off that jail bed (I bet Bob Barker sold it to them) and upstairs to a patient room. It's like the Hilton compared to the other one. At present, I'm chillin in here and thankfully all my symptoms stopped. I'm showered with attention, which I could do without. They scan my bracelet and confirm who I am, making me say my name and birthday. Every 3 hours. That's inefficient. My IV bag ran out and it beeped forever. The tech kept running over to quiet it - every two minutes! Is there no way to pause it, cut it off? Hitting STOP meant nothing but for 2 minutes. When she left, I just took the battery out and put it back in. I wasn't gonna sit there listening to beeping for the twenty minutes that it took for a refill. Then a nurse showed me a laptop I could use. Know what she said to me? "Of course, it stays when you go." What? Did this woman just tell me not to steal the hospital laptop??? Bruh...one star for that. If I was in better mental condition, she would NOT have been. I will say this. The procedures are quick and thorough and detialed. You just have to ask for information. And don't steal the laptop. read more

The quality of care here was practically nonexistent. They treat patients like robots that are there to burden them. Everyone we interacted with acted as if we were in their way and we were bothering them. They barely spoke to us and we had to practically beg for any information of what was going on or any updates. The people here lack compassion and empathy which are 2 of the most important things to have when dealing with sick/injured people. I have nothing else to add other than I will not be returning here ever again and do fucking better. read more

Would give Zero stars if I could. The ER is terrible. they are so concerned on "door to doc" metrics that you won't get treatment, only contact points and shuffled along. The ER treatment area is just a bunch of chairs, not treatment beds, CHAIRS! with a flimsy curtain between. You are obliged to hear the maladies of every other person in the ER, and they hear yours! No privacy at all. I'm so sorry for the girl with the suspected ectopic as they packed her up with drugs and sent her to the waiting room (Yes! THE WAITING ROOM!) to wait for ultrasound. (I guess they needed her chair for the metrics) I was terribly sick and shouldn't have had to listen to this or for her (and everyone else) to listen to me puking my guts out. It was the worst. I should NOT have been able to hear every single patient's symptoms, illness and treatment. Big shout out to the fella so thrilled over his fentanyl treatment that he wanted to share that with everyone. I didn't need all your cheering and whooping it up with the boys. As soon as a PA sees you, you are sent to wait in the main waiting room with your IV meds rolling to wait for further treatment. No observation at all by a care team and you have to sit in that vulnerable state among anyone who walks in the ER door, including any prisoner being walked in by the police! Of course that is if there is a chair available to wait in. They may all be filled by the assortment of people just hanging out waiting for someone. This was worse than what I would ever have imagined. I never expected such a horrible experience in Cary. I will NEVER go to this ER again. read more

I wish I didn't have to compose such a poor review, but I feel that my experience needs to be heard. I delivered my son here during the pandemic and had 3 awful nurses who I felt definitely were treating me different due to racial bias. The first was while I was in labor, and when telling her my IV was painful she stuck an ice pack on it. She told me to be strong and that more pain was going to come and the IV was nothing. The nurse following her shift told me that the pain was b/c my IV was turned up too high. My second was post delivery when I had requested more perineal packs the day following delivering my son naturally. I was in a lot of pain, and told by that nurse that those were only for immediately after delivery. I advocated for myself and asked her to get them despite what they were for. I had just given birth and was recovering, and did not want to take a ton of oral pain meds when all I wanted was the ice pack. The third and final nurse accused me of stealing baby blankets when I had asked for more after my newborn had peed on a pile of them that was near his little plastic crib box. I was extremely appauled and explained to her that my son just peed on them and I needed more. After writing a concerning email to the hospital, I got a reply back from the supervisor saying that things were going to be investigated and sorry for my experience. NO MOTHER should ever have to go through such a poor experience like this while giving birth. I genuinely hope that the service provided to women pre and post labor gets better. read more

The Urgent Care if extremely a good place to visit. Office staff is professional and polite. You are seen quickly and treated with respect. I highly recommend this place. read more

Ridiculous wait to find out results from tests. The emergency room is completely empty and we've still been sitting here for three hours. They seemed responsive at first, but then it's like everybody went home. I would hate to see how long this would take if they were actually busy. read more

If zero stars were an option it would be without hesitation a zero. I left a 12 hr ER visit with less answers and feeling worse than when I entered. The two test my Dr asked the ER to run, they didn't. I was in a much pain I was vomiting from the intensity, my pain wasn't managed without me having to constantly advocate for myself which is no easy task in that much pain. There is literally no excuse for the amount of time it took to her such poor care. My IV was done so bad that there was blood everywhere and all over my arm and clothes. I was sent into the waiting room with a urine sample cup, that had been dropped on the ground by an employee, with no sample bag, no cleaning wipes nada. On they also has people coming in via ambulance that they then made sit in waiting room. This was due to not having a single room open for almost 2 hrs. Which is very confusing seeing that it's not in any way an impacted/over capacity hospital. They can't handle basic things and will not be able to get you answers you can trust in any way. I had to explain to the dr what different bacteria strains meant. It was unreal. If you want to waste time, money and get no answers at all all with a pinch of mansplaining and a side of "I don't know"... this is your place. read more

Currently sitting in the ER with my parents waiting for some one to come and collect the urine sample he's been holding for the last 20 minutes. They took his blood but didn't collect the urine sample which baffles me. Why is he still holding on to a urine sample a nurse or someone should have been sent off to test for appendicitis. I guess I shouldn't have high expectations....there's a diabetic woman who's been screaming in pain who has been waiting for a bed since 10am. But they are "soooooo sorry for her wait". I hate WakeMed and the whole NC health system. I will be updating the longer we sit here. read more

WakeMed Cary Hospital - The reception area of the Emergency Room - Hospitals Near Me - Cary, North Carolina

Ridiculous, lack of care in the ED. You're just a number here. Like McDonalds they want to get you in, and quickly check you out. They don't actually care to investigate why you're in pain or what the issue is. Just check in, and write a script and hope it works. read more

They don't fix the issues and the some of the rns are literally no help no respect ...they put u in more pain than ur already in I would not recommend read more

Depends on the doctor you get AND especially the way you TREAT the attending physicians. It's very much of a "you get what you give here." And be VERY VERY careful of what you say about your mental health. You can't take it back once it's spoken and what you say can be misconstrued. Dr. Erin was fantastic as was most of the staff. Just realize their job is to treat YOU and the symptoms they witness, no matter what you say after. read more

Honestly the admittance rate into the Emergency Room is dependent upon the amount of patients. Recently one of my family members had an experience here for a few days and it was a positive one. We really liked all of the nurses and doctors, they wanted to ensure that she was healthy prior to leaving. Plus, the rooms were spacious. I recommend eating in the Cafeteria for lunch and at the Bistro for dinner (options for dinner are limited here). read more

WakeMed Cary Hospital - Hospitals Near Me - Cary, North Carolina

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Every time I've been here they stick me or my wife in a hallway instead of a room. They bring person after person back to rooms that came in after us. We've been in a hallway for over 3 and a half hours now while people just keep walking by and by. I can see several empty rooms just from where I'm sitting. Never once have had a good experience here. It's the worst hospital I've ever been to (and I'm from Florida lol) 10/10 would not recommend. read more

DO NOT USE THIS FACILITY. GO TO DUKE! These people are nothing but thieves. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. It takes days to get anything done while they suck your insurance and bank accounts dry. My spouse was at WakeMed Cary for a stay that was twice as long as it needed to be. I am completely flabbergasted. I was just able to get him home last evening, but even then we had to argue with the "D.O." who was his alleged attending provider. We only ever saw one person with "MD" behind their name and that was in the E.D. His own Cardiologist who is affiliated with WakeMed didn't even bother to stop in to look at his patient with a mechanical heart valve and taking coumadin (for preventing clots). We plan to fire him today and find someone else. I work for a major academic medical center and have been a Registered Nurse for 35 years. The "treatment plan" put together at WakeMed was non-existent or not shared with us. I know that to treat the internal bleeding that was occurring, they did NOT rush, they did not do much of anything. There are protocols and procedures for things like this, none of which were offered. They let him lay there because they wanted to let the coumadin to "wear off". Well, a patient who presents with active bleeding, has just vomited a liter of pure bright red blood and taking blood thinners should NEVER be left in a room, unfed, un-bathed, ignored by Physicians so the blood thinner can wear off. There are emergent methods for dealing with this, none of which WakeMed would do. THEY REFUSED! They keep "putting messages" in their multi-million dollar electronic medical record that no one apparently reads. If I heard it once I heard it a 100 times, "I'll put in a message to your provider". BS! Pick-up the damn phone! The nurses did very well, they were very kind, but obviously short staffed. The medical staff consisted of PAs and NPs. Not knocking either of those medical roles but let's get serious. I even detected frustration with the nurses as it related to the expediency (or lack thereof) of the medical staff. I determined that they likely don't have the medical staff needed to run an alleged Level III trauma center. Everyone that came into the room would contradict the previous "medical staff member". They were not at all on the same page! DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU OR A LOVED ONE. My spouse was terrified for me to let them know I am a nurse or even raise my voice as he was afraid he would not get any care at all and/or they wouldn't let me back in the building. There is signage to that effect. So, don't complain about the lack of care you get while you are in the building. They will show you all the awards they have won for their spectacular health system but I no longer trust those awarding agencies. They clearly didn't do their homework about the place. Suspicious. I am surprised this place isn't on the news more often. If you truly care about you or your family, steer clear. Have a plan to get to a different health system. Don't be fooled by the awards on their website and don't let the pretty inside of the lobby fool you either. That's obviously where they have spent the most money. If you are a visitor and are looking to find food, the "cafeteria" is only open at very specific hours so you'll be out of luck. I went to a vending machine that stole my $2.05 for a bottle of water. I didn't try again. They ripped me off enough. While in the E.D., they scraped my VISA card for $1750. My husband wasn't even stable yet. While in the hospital, we received a text message about the radiology bill. I thought, let us get out of here alive then we'll talk payment. Also, you are supposed to have access to your medical record. NOT ONE of the "provider notes" have displayed in the "My Chart" app. What are they hiding or revising? AVOID WakeMed! ` read more

June 1st I was walking into a convenience store to get gas and a coffee in Selma Nc . Unbeknownst to me a homeless man was inside and he had left his dog leashed to his duffel bag on the sidewalk next to the door . As I walked by , the dog ran over and bit me in the leg . I immediately went to the bathroom and used soap and water , got my gas / coffee and went to my job ( a mile away ). I asked our service dept for a first aid kit and used alcohol swabs to clean it more. Two days later I wake up with a very stiff shoulder / neck . I think maybe I slept wrong and give it a few more days . Two days later I can barely move my neck so I start googling severe stiff necks ... one of the questions was , have you been bitten by a dog . I might have tetanus. So off to the hospital. They suggest tetanus shot AND rabies since I don't know the dog nor the owner . Yes it was explained that rabies is fatal and requires FOUR series of shots . So I take their advice and get the tetanus shot ( which seemed to clear up my neck issue ) and the first round of rabies shots . A few days later I log into my United Health Care app to see the charges , you can see the picture below . They want me to pay 5800 for the FIRST round of FOUR shots, and the total bill is 25k !! If I could get paid 25k for 3 minutes of giving a shot... I called CVS ... they'll do it for 641.00 My local health Department in Fuquay Varina referred me to Clinic E in raleigh. They do the shots for $300.00 I called the hospital talked to customer service . I explained it was cheaper to die ... I can't afford this . Heck I can get a Covid or flu shot for free !! Rabies has been around for centuries... why is it 100K??? For four rounds ?? They said they'd review my case and I'd get an answer in 30 days. I just got it ... another bill for 5800 and that is just my portion. The total bill for ONE visit is $24900 Greed of these people and complete lack of really trying to help couldn't be more obvious. Next I'll contact some local news channels and see if they want this story. read more

As a family member waiting for a loved one having surgery I have the following observations. Way back in '96 I had my surgery there and evidently things have changed. First the Music in the Surgical waiting area is WAY too Loud. I was left with a Migraine after several hours of waiting And I'm a Music lover but the volume was totally unnecessary. 2) Family members with Afternoon Surgeries are discriminated against by virtue of their ridiculous Cafeteria hours which are so limited. With Cary and Wake Med growing so much why are the Hours for obtaining food SO little. The "Bistro" is a Complete Joke. For a Hospital System that prides itself on offering great Cardiovascular help the Bistro has NO low sodium options. It is a Salty Chips and Popcorn paradise. Drink options are severely limited. read more

All I can say is stay away. They admitted me and only I really needed was breathing treatments as I had bronchitis. They only gave me an antibiotic on my way out the door, which my doctor said in Boston would not have even touched the bronchitis. Gets better the only bed they have after they admit me is in the ICU, they said I would not get billed as an ICU patient as I was up walking around the unit, making sure to keep my lungs from getting pneumonia. They did in fact bill me for ICU stay. Attempted to call the hospital and I could not get through to anyone besides the customer service reps. Go back to NY, NJ or Boston, NC healthcare is barely adequate not to mention so expensive due to so many uninsured in NC. I has a discussion with a male nurse in the ICU, was talking about Boston, he had never heard of Dana Faber or Joslin Diabetes. These are two institutions that everyone in healthcare should be familiar with especially since many health standards come from these two institutions. Luckily I learned quick things are better in the North including healthcare. read more

The doctors and nurses in this hospital are very good. I have had three CT examinations. The staff has a very good service attitude and is warm and thoughtful. What I am not satisfied with is that in the past six months, I applied for MyChart, but no one paid attention to it. Since I did not have the code sent by them, I could not register, so I could not see my CT examination report. I am very dissatisfied with their irresponsible and unconcerned style of patients. I wonder if no one is managing MyChart, and the hospital leaders should pay attention. Hope my problem can be solved soon! Thanks! read more

I went to ER on June 18th via ambulance to be put in a hallway for treatment even though there were rooms available in the other bay. I found this out when I was going to CT and saw empty areas. It was a long enough stay and curious why I didn't get a private area? Instead, I was out for public viewing with many people walking past me for my stay. Yes, I have insurance. read more

Absolutely terrible and incompetent facility. Save your time and go to a different hospital.

Was just released after being treated for four broken ribs and a collapsed lung. I'm 65 and was showing off with my grandson on a skateboard at the Apex skate park. After a day I Went to the Apex Wakemed hoping yo get some pain pills. Found out about the ribs and lung there and got an smb ride to Cary Wakemed. Within an hour of arriving I had a chest tube inserted and spent two days on the 5th floor. I can't say enough good about the quality of date that I received right down to the good they served me. Great hospital and while I hope to never need them again , I won't hesitate to return. Thanks a ton to the folks at Cary WskeMed hospital. read more

I sent a complaint to them about this and they said they would look into it. I highly doubt they will but if they do, I will post another update regarding this. read more

ER arrival. a week inpatient. everyone was helpful, friendly and pro-actively dealing with issues. Thank you all.

I had an urgent situation that required me to admit myself to ER. From the front desk intake Lorinda (sp) to the CT operator (Jennifer), I was well looked after. Everyone was knowledgeable and very pleasant. Kudos to Dr. Fairbrother and my nurse Alyse for the excellent care. read more

Our family member was in the ED at Cary WakeMed and once in the ED room, smelled something awful. The bed blanket had dried vomit on it!

This place is ridiculous. Went in with a serious emergency in horrible amounts of pain and watched people with stomach bugs and colds go before me. Told I would have to wait 4 more hours to speak with the doctor and get the results of my tests, after already waiting for three hours in an uncomfortable waiting room in serious pain, while vomiting. Some of the staff were very nice, others were incredibly rude. Now, I know the emergency room is not a fun place, and there is usually a lot of waiting. This is especially true if you don't have a very serious situation. I get that. This, however, was just ridiculous, especially with the reason I went to E.R. I left in tears before getting seen. After I originally posted a review on Google about my experience, they commented that "Unfortunately, in the emergency department we care for patients in the order of severity." This is absolutely untrue. I went to another hospital that same night (shortly after leaving WakeMed) and was seen immediately. They wanted to admit me to inpatient for a severe kidney infection and dehydration. I had to receive treatment immediately. Lucky I was able to go home after a rough night in the hospital with meds and fluids, but was still on bed rest. So it seems fairly obvious that no, they don't take people in order of severity, unless they arrive by ambulance. If you value your health, consider another facility. read more

If you are attempting to go to their ER I highly suggest you find another clinic. I am a breast cancer patient (currently) and the physicians at WakeMed do not listen at all and have terrible bedside manners. I am a kinesiologist by occupation, so I have worked in various clinics and hospitals, and this place treats patients like garbage. WakeMed requested a care plan from my primary physician so they could treat me correctly when I went into the ER. I suffered permanent nerve damage from chemotherapy. I gave my care plan that THEY requested to the physician assigned to me. She threw it back in my face and then said, you have seen too many providers. I couldn't figure out if she was that dense or being serious. She is an MD and should know that cancer patients have care TEAMS. As I was explaining to her, most cancer patients have a surgical oncologist, medical oncologist, plastic surgeon, pain management, and primary care. This physician made a lot of uncalled for assumptions about me without even asking. I don't know whats going on with this clinic, but there is no consistency with the providers. We gave them everything they asked for but refused to follow the instructions of my primary care physician AND medical oncologist. We tried to explain that it takes time for all of the tests they have to run on me, and there is a chance that the cancer metastasized - we just have to wait until we visit my medical oncologist to get the clear for a CT scan of my brain. We also tried to explain to them that if not treated properly, I get seizures. Our provider was still rude and nasty to us because I don't think she could reconcile that we had a care team dealing with my breast cancer. I know she failed to read the care plan written by my providers. If they treat ME this way, I can only imagine how they treat other patients. Everyone deserves to be heard, and these physicians fail to do that. It really is like rolling dice when you go to this clinic because you never know what type of physician you are going to encounter, and if you want to go to another WakeMed location I would be cautious. The WakeMed physicians rotate to all the other locations as well. When you try to do the right thing, this facility seems to punish you for coming in for care anyway. It's all most like they all hate their jobs and don't want to be there, thus taking out their frustrations on the patient. read more

I feel I am in Jamaica! Where is everyone and why can't we leave? I am about to pack up and walk out of the hospital. Surgery went well - it was done in an emergency situation and I got to the room at 11:45 pm. I was told to expect to be discharged in the afternoon the next day. Well it is 6:30 pm and I haven't even seen the doctor. The nurses are scarce and I need to hunt them down for everything. Food is mediocre at best Bed side care sucks I will never come here again I think I should send them the bill for all the care past noon today. This sucks Wake Med Cary Sucks read more

I stayed for 6 days and only felt confident with 2 of my nurses. The doctors would get frustrated with questions I had about my own health. The transition with nurses was absolutely terrible and slow and they would take forever just to come check in. Not only was my pain extreme here, my frustration and anger made everything worse due to the people working here. I would travel to a different state before I trusted these people again. The worst person of all was the 3rd floor west wing hall manager. She was loud, rude, insensitive, and simply showed she does not have the patients best interest at heart. Do better. read more

do not go there. I had my baby in November. They provided me expired formula for my newborn. we did not realize until we got home.

We made sure when we went to Wake med Cary they were in our UHC network, without notifying us or giving us any choice they used contractors that we out of our network. Now many months later we are getting "surprise" bills informing us we owe gross amounts of money. Had Wake med used a contractor that was in our network, would had been covered. We understand contractors were available that were in our network. Why can't Wake med take care of their customers enough to see that contractors are covered in the customers plan? Update Wake med has been in touch with us and is trying to help with this read more