This is likely the best Indian food I have had in a restaurant, or that wasn't catered or home cooked. Everything tastes wonderful! The briyani is great, the vegetable curry is delicious, the fried options are crunchy even in the trays, and the mint infused items are vibrant. I'd happily return for their buffet, especially for the price. The only gripes I have are that the fried options are fairly oily. They taste great, but you can feel the oil taste inside them. The restaurant is also absolutely covered in wall paper listing all the benefits of vegetables and a vegetarian diet. Not a bad thing, probably not even wrong, but it felt like I was eating surrounded by diatery propaganda. The service is bare minimum. Don't expect to speak to anyone after you enter, and nobody will check on how you're doing. Still, as I said before, the buffet was fantastic and I'd happily return. Can't beat it for the price! read more

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So so good! Very flavorful. Many options. If there were more stars to give I would. Please open one of these in New Orleans!

I popped in today for lunch and it was relatively quiet. I loaded up my plate with the sides (various veggies such as red cabbage) and the mains such as dal, etc and various sauces. There is also brown rice and pilau. I was pleased by the options available (and there are assorted drinks and desserts as well if you fancy) as well as the obvious cheap price -£7.95 for all you can eat. The food's flavour wasn't overly spicy, just a perfect punch that made everything tasty. The sides are pretty bland so focus on the mains. The decor is nothing fancy; rather there are posters everywhere advocating vegetarianism which I loved. And blaming carnivores for warfare :) I am drinking a star because the owner/person at the till was pretty grouchy. I asked him what some of the sides were as there were no identification on them and that request seemed to annoy him. He also just grumbled a thank you when I paid. Seriously, if you don't want my money I'll gladly go elsewhere! read more

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Very good place. Self service buffet with good food. Inexpensive and completely vegetarian. Very socially, environmentally, and health wise friendly. read more

It is the credit crunch after all but don't let that stop to dining out. This has to be one of the cheapest places to eat in the area and is loved by every local. I can't rate it higher than 3 stars though as it has the Marmite affect, you either love it or you hate it. The basics are simple, you pay a couple of quid to sit and eat you body weight in veggie curry. Expect lentils, sloppy dishes and self service. It's really what I would call the lazy dinner option as it's on my way home from work. It's around £2.50 for the food and about £1 for each drink. The tables are a little squished together and the decorations tacky as hell but that is all part of it's charm. If your not a veggie when you go in you'll definitely consider it by the time you walk out, if not for the tasty food but for the vegetarian propaganda that is slapped on every inch of wall available. It's also a good place to eat on your own as it's fast and you don't end up hanging around all night and feeling that little bit uncomfortable. This little place is also hidden from the tourists so generally you get a lovely mix of locals and their friends. Well done Indian Veg Bhelpoori House! Oh and if you can't remember the name of this place when you are there, just walk down the street and it's a few doors down from The Elbow Rooms. read more

Fab Sunday lunch ! Great friendly staff and a good selection of vegetarian curries, rice and salad. Very good casual option for lunch or dinner. read more

Great value for money. Very tasty and authentic food. The posters can be a little off putting to look at and is very overwhelming. The lighting is quite dingy and I think the place is due a refurbish. I will definitely revisit but would only recommend this place some. read more

Indian Veg Bhelpoori House - Indian Near Me - London, XGL

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Indian veg has been a long established restaurant in Angel on Chapel market, opened in 1985 and still successfully running today. Although set up very much like a canteen with its simple green cramped layout, it's will probably be one of the most memorable vegetarian Indian you'll go to serving a large variety of delicious vegan and vegetarian dishes, self service buffet style and costing only £6.50 whilst being surrounded by walls covered with strong ethics posters about animal cruelty, being vegetarian and some with more factual information about food. It's like no other vegetarian Indian restaurant I've been to which gives it that bit of unique charm. It's a very relaxing no fuss place with not even music playing giving a sense of tranquility or for some the silence can be too much to handle.We were pretty much seated straight away and from there it's pretty much help yourself to the homely cooked vegetarian dishes in the buffet area. Staff were quite absent but somehow made me more comfortable reaching for seconds and even thirds. They were very helpful when needed, like pouring out tap water when you ask. The buffet area was divided between starters which included onion bhaji and fried vegetables, Mains consisted of vegetarian and vegan curries such as paneer with peas curry and mixed vegetable curry. Also a wide selection of sides such as aloo peas, mixed dal, bread salad and spicy potato mashed and all can be eaten with brown rice or pilau rice.On the other side were all the raw salads such as carrot and white cabbage and red and white onion salad and the healthy option of fruit as a dessert. To be honest, the dishes changes quite frequently as last time I went they also had poppadoms. Also there is a longer list of desserts but that's on a separate menu where you will have to pay extra. Everything I had (which was pretty much everything) was lovely and homely. All seasoned perfectly, wholesome and flavoursome. You must try the spicy mashed potatoes which were just incredibly fluffy and very well spiced and out the mains I enjoyed the paneer peas the best with the added cheese, giving it that extra creamy touch. Everything was quite mild so suitable for most palates. Like I said before, don't feel bad about asking for tap water even at the low prices. They are more than happy to serve you it if you ask. There is also a huge selection of bottle drinks at the front but even better is a whole menu of homemade drinks with vegan options such as soya mango lassi. Indian Veg is a restaurant I highly recommend for everyone. Even though it's vegetarian I didn't feel like I was missing out. It's so budget friendly as well offering a self service buffet 7 days a week, both lunch and dinner. read more

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I've been coming here on and off for 20 years. That makes feel really old but also really consistent. The food is good as ever and in the 20 years I've been coming the price has only increased by ONE POUND! I would go so far as to say that it's cheaper to eat here than it is to eat at home. There's no alcohol on sale, but you're welcome to bring your own. read more

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We went here on a whim, because it was close to our hotel, but discovered a unique and quirky little eating house. The clientele was all ages and socially diverse as well. Food was cooked homestyle and was a decent variety of vegetables, dal, several salads and four kinds of rice. The bread option was only pooris, but they are everyone's favorite! At 7.95 for all you can eat, it excellent valued. They do sell desserts separately and the dessert menu is quite varied. They're reasonably priced as well. We filled up on the food, so did not get dessert. Next time, maybe I'll try a pistachio Kulfi! read more

Indian Veg Bhelpoori House - Indian Near Me - London, XGL

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Sorry reviewers this place now charges £5.50 gasp!!! They also no longer serve alcohol but are cool about you bringing your own (no corkage fee) Whats to say that hasn't already been said in the 2 and 3 star reviews? If you're poor, hungry and cold, head for this place - It's a bargain. Be prepared for the preachy veggie propaganda that plasters the walls, as I pointed out in another review of this place the one FACT they forgot to mention is that the Indian sub-continent has one of the highest levels of diabetes on the planet. read more

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Sure it's £3.95 for your fill on all you can eat vegetarian Indian dishes (three hot offerings, a few salads, and some carb-y snacks like popcorn, bombay mix and crispy fried treats) but it doesn't stop there. You should also prepare yourself (your eyes, specifically) for a full preachy dose of vegetarian living. It was intense. It was like paying to go to the church of no-meat. .... but it was £3.95. See my dilemma here? read more

Yeah it's kinda shotty-looking from the outside, but once inside it's kinda warm and fuzzy in a florescent light cafeteria type of way. They have lots of inspiring messages on the walls, which give it sort of a hippy vibe. And besides, it's 5.95 for a buffet (cash only) - which is pretty damn tasty might I add. I am not a vegetarian but I didn't even miss the meat. I feel like there's a joke in there somewhere... Yeah so anyone who has ever tried to spend less than 10 on a meal in London will understand why that's the equivalent of finding a unicorn. read more

Ok, ok. Recession, yada yada yada, it is now £4.50. Still a steal though, if you really think about it. The propaganda on the walls is hilarious. Definitely what I call highly entertaining dinner conversation. Where else can you see Albert Einstein and Olivia Newton John quoted on the same chart? And did you know that all of the world's problems would be instantly solved if we all just became vegetarian? Oh, also, become vegetarian, and you TOO can look like a 25 year old Bollywood startlette at the age of 40. Truth. The 'data' all over the walls, bombarding you from every open space in the restaurant, borders on hilarity equal to headlines from The Daily Mail or Fox News. Fried things are not great cold, however. In my opinion, just get a sizable plate of rice, slop on the least greasy looking curry, add some pickle/onion/chutney and go to town. Then go back, even if you're not hungry, because that's what one does at a buffet. Eating out, filling your impoverished student tummy, and all for under a fiver? Why, yes, I WILL be looking forward to another visit. Guess they don't know Hitler was also a vegetarian. read more

I like to drop in here for lunch from time to time. It's a £6.50 Indian veg buffet. The dishes are always the same. It won't wow you foodwise but it's reliable and tasty enough. They have some finely chopped salads, a variety of curries (although a lot based on peas and potatoes) and some crispy onion rings and mini bhajis to put on top. Walls are plastered with vegetarian propaganda and the virtues of a vegetarian diet. They have a variety of fruit juices (cans and bottles) and also fruit lassis to order. Don't come here if you want an overpriced concept eatery with a scene and hip design and like to queue up round the block for the privilege. You won't like it. Do come here if you like down to earth quirky places that are unique, good value and want to eat straight away. read more

£7.95 all you can eat Indian vegetarian buffet. The food is very good and the price reasonable. It is full of locals at dinner time, evidence of the taste of it's food. The walls are covered with food and vegetarian related posters. It is a bit of a hoot, but ignore the preachiness on the walls and enjoy the food. The owner is a really nice man. No credit cards.. I found out the hard way when it came time to pay. He provided me with direction to an ATM and within 10 minutes he was paid. There was absolutely no concern on his part about the issue. If you like Indian food, you will really enjoy this restaurant in the Islington area of London. read more

Don't really understand all the good reviews for this place. Came during off hour for a quick lunch, i swear, the place looks like it is closed down from the outside. Anyway, the place can seat quite some people. there were 3 types of rice and 4 types of curries.. tbh they all tasted blend and tasted about the same- and yellowish with tons of potato. the only more tastable one was the coconut based curry with paneer cheese, and potato. just a note, all of their dishes are heavy on potato. it was like eating a potato feast with the occasional appearance of some chick peas and cabbages. remember. potatoes. then there's the bhaja -fried onion dish and another fried dish, pompadom and some domed shaped crisp bread. all quite oily. heart disease here I come! 3 types of cabbage salad, and 2 onion salad. comes with 2 watered down salad sauces. oh, and some unhealthy crispy rice topping thingies. and yep, that's all. sure 4.95 all you can eat would def fill you up with the help of a stomach full of potatoes. but I'm just not sure about the quality and variety, and feels like I can get better curry from M&S. read more

Pros: 3.95, omg! Cons: You get what you pay for. Cons: afraid food would give me GI distress. Pros: It didn't? Pros: food tastes fine, run of the mill indian stuffs. Cons: food wasn't exactly hot. Room temperature Poori & Dal not exactly my idea of Indian food paradise. Pros: OMG, THREE FRIGGIN NINETY FIVE, DAMMIT!!!!!! read more

I've been going to this place since I was a poor little student, with little more than a few pennies to rub together. It was £2.95 back then for all you could. Yes, £2.95! 15 years later, it's soared to a heady £5.95, but c'mon guys, that ain't bad for all you can stuff in your fat face, is it. And it's damn tasty. And it's entirely vegetarian. So all in all, this herbivore is pretty bloody happy. Don't forget to try the salads, especially the yellow fella - it's not all about the curry, you know. And treat yourself to a delicious lassi. And if your date doesn't offer quite the scintillating conversation you'd hoped for, the walls are absolutely plastered with vegetarian propaganda to keep you entertained through your meal. Woohoo, have your £5.95 (cash only, please) at the ready! read more

Indian Veg Bhelpoori House - We do, we do! Indian Veg Bhelpoori House - Indian Near Me - London, XGL

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At £5.50, this vegetarian buffet is good value. There's a selection of salads, rice, poppadoms and unidentified fried dough things, with three different curries and dahls to choose from. The poppadoms could have been slightly crispier but that's a minor thing. It was all quite tasty and maybe the spiced potato mash was slightly too tasty. There was a lot of potato. The curry is too greasy to have buffet-level amounts of though. It's bring your own drink which cuts down the costs, but there is a wide variety of non-alcoholic drinks available to buy there too. Being honest, it's not the food that would have me coming back here, it's nice enough but there are other attractions... I'm definitely no seal clubber but I am as partial to lumps of nutritious animal tissue as the next man. Indian Veg Bhelpoori House is not my usual scene but I love vegetarian food too. However here animal tissue consumption of any kind is, let's say, frowned upon. THE WALLS SHOUT AT YOU. About lots of things. But mainly about the eating meat. Every surface is covered in incredible, bizarre signage. One particular sign (over the salad bar) extolls the benefits of drinking water. I thought the benefits of drinking water would be fairly standard but apparently it "aids body lubrication". What even is "body lubrication"? Is body lubrication just excessive sweating? Am I slipping into some kind of figure hugging amniotic sleeping bag? We will never know. I my have misread the sign however under the extraterrestrial blue light of the most amazing light fixture I have ever seen. It is the chandelier belonging in the play dungeon of a mortician-cum-80s-pimp. From the outside you would never know it was a restaurant and you wouldn't really be any the wiser on the inside. I should really be talking about the food but the visual assault on the senses is extraordinary and a main reason I will be returning. It is a relaxing, affordable place to go, if you can find it and if you can deal with the placard-laden interior. This place is Morrissey in the guise of an obscure subcontinental buffet restaurant. read more

The food was sub-par at best, and I'm speaking from a generally trustworthy position of authority, being somewhat of a vegan curry aficionado. Even if I do say so myself. The three curries available looked and tasted like the same thing; they were just varying degrees of greasy. The crispy items like 'onion bhajis', what I can only assume was vegetable pakora (or maybe it was supposed to be a samosa?) and miscellaneous crispy bits (potato snacks, bombay mix, et cetera) were soggy. The mini naans were more like pitta. The rice was sticky and dry. but... well, with all-you-can-eat for £3.95, I can't argue. read more

Who on earth is giving this place stars? Seriously, I think we should all meet up and have a discussion. I've been here 3 times, and only because each time I've tried so hard to forget it, I did! "Vegetarians Paradise", only if you are a veggie into S&M. I've lived in India, and I've visited here with Indians, and I've visited here with vegetarians. And none of us would rate the food highly. It suffers from the same problems that can plague low-cost 'Indian/Bangladeshi' curry/poori houses: the food is just bad. How can a culture that can serve me the most amazing veg food, enough to make me abandon meat, often at the side of a road from a cart, be so miserable in a large kitchen restaurant? Stodgy, lacking favour, chapati/roti not fresh (often stale in the banquet, where everthing just is luke-warm). Oh I could go on... Please, let me do you a favour and save you from here. If, like me, you crave good Indian food then just walk to Millman Street across from the Brunswick and visit Salaam Namaste. If you need good veg food, then go elsewhere. (You got a star because we'd a great laugh once bopping around to Salmaan Khan's song Bhanjara) read more

I am rating this so highly due to my strong, nostalgic, muddy, stringy, swelling, unrootable, roots with this place. Yes the curries all taste the same, yes you come out smelling like you were working in their kitchen, yes I love commas. Put all this aside. You are paying 3.95 (used to be 2.95, those were the days). You are eating organic ingredients. You can eat the place into bankrupcy (please don't). I can only ever have one plate. Most importantly, in my opinion, it tastes great. I highly recommend adding a portion of their orange, lemon salad. It adds a light, refreshing, citrussy bite to what could be quite a stodgy meal. If my 5* rating doesn't lure you in then maybe the all powerful celebrity of Miss Philippines uk will. They have dinner here after the pageant. There are photos to prove it. You can even sit at the table Miss Myleene Klass sat at. Excellent, if your into that sort of thing. read more

This place is fantastic! Of course there were many vegetarian options, but I was most blown away by the number of vegetable options. My plate looked like a rainbow-purple cabbage and beets, shaved orange carrots with bright red pomegranate seeds, yellow (delicious!!) curried potatoes with cauliflower, green sauce, you get the idea. I enjoyed the curries as well, and ordered a sweet and creamy soy mango lassi. I did not miss the dairy at all! If you're a vegetarian or not, I would absolutely make a trip here. Good value and great food! read more

Great philosophy and solid food for excellent value, though I wouldn't give it more than three stars. Everything was literally Indian veg, per the restaurant name. A reasonable variety and good flavours overall. However, nothing spectacular to blow my mind. It was literally worth the money we paid for. Service was good overall, though we did not have much interaction with the servers, given it was buffet. Ambience was cozy and local -- a very Indian kind of atmosphere. Walls were covered with vegetarian propagandistic posters. One of my friends said this place has remained exactly the same since he first visitors twenty five years ago. Gives you a sense of the the philosophy of the place. read more

This place is definitely worth the £3.95. Sure, the food has been sitting their heated pans and it doesn't look that great, it's still tasty and it's still all you can eat. I would definitely just stick to the curry and rice, though. All of the fried food were very stale and some of the salads were rather unappetizing. read more

This has got to be my favourite Indian restaurant in London! For the price (all you can eat for £4.50), taste, friendliness of the owner, and overall kitsch, it's always worth it. Oh--and you can BYOB for no extra charge! My recommendation: Try the Indian ice cream--it's light and refreshing, perfect after a spicy meal, and you get all three flavours for just £2.50! read more

Decent place but disappointed that much of the food on the buffet was cold. Could have had a lot more potential.

It's hard to find good food for under a fiver anywhere, especially in London. But Indian Veg Bhelpoori House does exactly that: all you can eat vegetarian buffet for £3.95 every day from midday till 11.30pm. Just 5 minutes walk from Angel tube, this place is also in my favourite location in London. When I went on a week day lunchtime, there was no waiting, we were simply shown our table by the lone guy running the show and then left to eat our way through as much as we could manage. There was a selection of salads, three types of rice and four or five curries as well as naan breads and various bhajis. All of the curries were relatively mild, or at least there were no eye-watering dishes (which was good for me but others might see that as a down side). You could also help yourself to drinks from the fridge and then pay for everything on your way out. There are some amusing posters on the walls claiming that the vegetarian diet is how all the Bollywood princesses achieve their beauty. The rest of the wall space is full of vegetarianism promotion, and reasons for leaving your carnivore habits. As a meat eater this didn't put me off it actually made me wonder if what they said was right... The food was really delicious and didn't leave me feeling ill (like so many all-you can-eats often do). It wasn't too busy and the people in there were a real mix, from single individuals to families, from friends and couples to people on lunch meetings. It's not the sort of place to go if you want to be treated by attentive waiters, but if you just want some good, tasty food and are happy to serve your self - this place is excellent. read more

When at uni down the road, this was our number one dinner spot. So cheap at £3.80 for all you can eat and without the worry of cheap meat, you really can't go wrong. It's not a beautiful place and not one where you'd likely linger, but for a quick fill it's ideal. The posters all over the walls encouraging a vegan lifestyle are an excellent talking point, and one I'm actually in agreement with, but I'm not sure the amount of salt that comes on the food is in line with the health benefits this place claims! As for the food itself, it's good but by no means amazing. As the price is low, the amount of vegetables understandably has to be skimped upon in favour of cheaper options like chick peas. There are chutneys, mini popadoms, salads, brown and pilaf rice, and a selection of basic samosas. It's all good and hearty, but a little on the salty side, and something you'd likely be disappointed in if it weren't for the price. But of course the price is why you're there, so if you're after some shockingly good value Indian food then look no further read more

This place is a real find. Indian Veg has an all you can eat buffet of vegetarian Indian food. For £3.50 a head. That is an incredible bargain. And the price does not change depending on the time of day, like many all you can eat buffets. The decor is very much its own. Massive boards with vegetarian propaganda cover every single wall. This is excellent should you be on a date with someone really boring, as there's plenty to read about. The food is very good, and it's unlimited. The feeling is slightly if a community cafe or a canteen, but that adds to the charm. They have a great selection of drinks ranging from 99p to £2.50. I had a mango lassi, which was really lovely. They also have non dairy options. read more

What an interesting find! For 3.95 all you can eat I ate all I could eat. I was stuffed afterwards having tried all the mostly good, mainly greasy, rich curries they had at the buffet. Combine them with a choice of three different types of rice (including brown rice), papadums, fried onions or some of the interesting orange-flavoured cabbage salads (try it yourself, surprisingly, yes, this combination does work!). Food was good, great value, certainly, especially considering the calorie per pound value ;-) I wish it had been less greasy and more varied in taste. Drinks are very cheap and they have some great fruit juices and all sorts of teas on offer. Even though I've had much better Indian food in London, the uniqueness of this truely, utterly (am I going to far calling it militantly?) vegetarian place was well worth the visit. Make sure you sit in a good spot where you can see as many of the posters as possible. Anybody who has read the weird facts poster on the wall - I'm still trying to figure out what the longest word of the English language is. It said it is a part of the DNA and contains more than 1000 letters? read more

£3.50 eat as much as you like! Usually a selection of chickpea, potato, and other begetable curries, white, brown and pilau rice, bhajis, salads, etc. A wide choice of healthy and normal drinks (not included in buffet price). But what's best about this delightful restaurant is the decor: veggie propaganda covers the walls! Big pictures of beautiful Bollywood stars prove you can look healthy and gorgeous on a vegetarian dietSocrates, Pythagoras, Gandhi, famous vegetarians from all eras are quoted alongside recent news articles on the benefits of a vegetarian diet. Give peas a chance! One of my favourite places to sit, read and eat of an afternoon. read more

A small and atmospheric (in its own special way) place which provides truly great food for a very reasonable amount of money. It's a buffet so you can eat as much as you want from those amazing vegetarian dishes, including a salad bar with several salad choices (I love the onion salad which is basically pure onion with spices - super healthy but don't eat it if you're on a date!). You can get a wide variety of drinks, including lassi, both with cow and soya milk. They are reasonably priced but sadly not bottomless haha. The only reason I give 4* rather than 5 is because the general atmosphere is very modest and may not appeal to some people. There are a lot of posters on the walls advocating vegetarian eating against anything else, sometimes quite aggressively, and that could appear just slightly annoying. For me personally it's not a problem at all but I thought it's worth reflecting in my review. Also staff can seem a bit cold but if you are a regular they will quickly start recognising you and being quite friendly. In concluding - I'd say it's definitely worth visiting and having a meal at the Indian Veg, especially if you want some yummy vegetarian Indian food. Beautiful meal for a beautiful price! read more

What a solid, local place. Came here with my best friend, who is Indian and vegetarian, for a vegetarian buffet dinner. We were not disappointed. Super cheap for London and good range of dishes (~10 options total). The decor is extremely fascinating and your eyes will not be bored throughout your meal. Free tap water. read more

I have been eating here once a week for years, it is one of London's hidden gems. The menu hasn't changed much over the years, but at £3.95 for all you can eat, I find it hard to cook a meal at home for that sort of price! The place is always busy (but never so packed you can't get a table) and there seems to be a solid regular customer base. The menu us all vegetarian, but all my meat eating friends say they don't miss the meat when eating here. It is a great place to come for a quick fill up as you can walk in and immediately start tucking into the buffet, and I go there on my own often and can find myself occupied with reading all the obscure (but interesting) facts that adorn the walls. An absolute bargain with great food and a lively atmosphere, this is a must for any self respecting Londoner! read more

I love Indian Veg Bhelpoori House. The staff are always helpful and polite. The menu although predictable and seasonally unchanging is always delicious and of course vegetarian. The onion bhajis are the absolute best! And best of all... The factually questionable vegan and vegetarian propaganda that is smeared across the walls is so entertaining that if you're alone or with a particularly tedious friend you'll never be bored. read more

Indian Veg Bhelpoori House - Fastest way to a man's heart? Honestly? - Get in his knickers. Failing that? Cheap buffets will do it. Don't he look satisfied? - Indian Near Me - London, XGL

I found this restaurant when I was on a business trip back in 2006 and was looking for some good food to recharge myself. This restaurant was exactly what I needed. Relaxing, honest, wholesome food with great people. Every time I visited London from Canada, I would make a point of returning. I stopped travelling for work in 2009, so when I visited London with family in 2017, I made a point of taking my daughter to this restaurant. The food continues to be amazing and a great value. My daughter still talks about how amazing the food and experience was and I'm sure she'll never forget. We'll be back soon! The world needs more places like this! Thank you. read more

Used to come to this cheap vegetarian Indian buffet house many years ago when it was about £4. The price has doubled since and was visiting here again recently but the food standard has gone down. They are now using broken basmati rice, the bajias are old and hard, there is no longer any lime pickle or mango chutney, the salads are awful and the curries are oily and bland. There are much better vegetarian buffets such as Chutneys and Ravi Shankar in Drummond street which are both cheaper and far better quality so don't bother with Indian Veg in Chapel market. read more

I enjoy quite a lot of Indian food and this was a disappointment. Food was either very bland, or too salty, or way too greasy. Bhaji and poori were rather stale. read more