Service no good and drive drop off returns car so hard ( by google map) I spent 30 minutes I found this place's never rental car Route

To this day, I still have not received my refund. It would be nice if they just return the money when they decline people their cars instead of being a wise guy. Stating oh well, good luck getting your money back. Have a good day. And don't lie about it either when you when you try to get the money back saying that the person's card didn't work cause I use that same card to rent a car from Hertz that same day. Do better !! you don't know other people situation. read more

I was I bit apprehensive, as I'd heard horror stories on Yelp. That said, I was short on time and cash, so I took the plunge. Note-I did buy the extra insurance through Expedia, as I always do with cheap car rental places. Below is my experience: Arrival- I arrived 3 hours later than expected due to a delay, and yet both the shuttle and office were open (despite it being past their stated closing time.) They checked me out fairly quickly and had me on the road in my slightly dingy Nissan Sentra within about 15-20 min Departure-I was a bit nervous after no one inspected my vehicle upon drop-off, but I received my return confirmation email within 30 minutes and my deposit within 1-2 business days. Pros: 1. Definitely some of the cheapest cars at ATL (for good reason) 2. Check in and out weren't too bad. 3. Open 20 minutes after hours. (Probably due to two renters ahead of me with foreign licenses.) Cons: 1. Inconvenient and slightly grungy offsite location offsite that requires a shuttle. (Ask for directions at the airport!) 2. Cars definitely not pristine, and transmission was suspiciously jerky for a car with "18,000" miles on it. 3. They allegedly give a hard sell on the insurance. Long story short, they came through for me during a difficult time. That said, I would definitely have modest expectations , take pictures of the car, and pre-buy the stupid accident coverage through a booking website like Expedia so that they don't try to hard-sell you at the site. Great if you're in a pinch, just proceed with caution. read more

PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM THIS SHADY BUSINESS! They nickel and dime you for everything and they lie right to your face.. Supposed to receive a refund, but the tune changed. Don't get worked up about the low prices because it's a reason.. Horrible company! read more

Although I received polite service from the ladies that got me checked in. That was the best part of the entire experience and I must say this was the first & last time I will rent a vehicle with ROUTES. There's far too many hurdles to renting a vehicle here... It is a mile+ away from the airport & you have to take two air trains plus their shuttle just to get to the rental center. Let's start there... First, never have I ever needed a $500 deposit on my credit card to hold a vehicle that was already paid for via a travel package... I've only had to- at most have $200-$250 on credit hold at Dollar/Avis/ Enterprise with reservation. While I'm told they "own their vehicles" - it does not mean anything to paying customers when they were given an original price & already paid for the rental. Having to jump up & transfer money to cover this excessive hold because it was damn near double what any other rental place charges; was basically an unexpected expense that really annoyed me. What if I was flat broke ATP?? I should've shuttled back to the airport and went to AVIS rental center and found an available vehicle but I had places to be. It was AFTER I've paid this excessive hold fee; I am gathering drop-off information because I had an early morning flight out & surprise, surprise- NOW they tell me- because they were not open at that hour & I would need to do a key drop off & then turn around and pay for an Uber to get back to the airport because there's no shuttle service at that hour. Oh- so just fill the vehicle up with gas, bring it back, then spend an additional $15-20 to get back to the airport... what?? Make it make sense. It begs the question, what's the point of renting a car HERE when there's clearly no convenience to doing so?? The nail in the coffin was the morning of drop off, the individual working seemed a little annoyed that he had to help me. This is not a nationwide- nor international rental center and I've NEVER heard of routes up until this trip. Let's be CRYSTAL clear, this just happened to be the lowest rate from a package trip from Priceline. This is likely a rental center for locals or those who can't get access to any other rental options. The morning of drop off- I was greeted with condescending tone & smart ass remarks from the time I rolled up- as if I should know where their drop-off parking is & to be that rude at that hour was insane. I've never received this level of terrible service from any other car rental place and I've had to rent a ton of vehicles before. It doesn't cost anything to be polite, especially since you're basically telling customers they have to spend more fucking money just to get back to the airport from that MF. I ordered an Uber to get back to the airport & a second worker arrived... in which they moved to the shuttle up front- so I am assuming they're about to start service; so I asked to be dropped off. He agreed & I canceled my Uber... but trip out--- he then turned around, hopped in his personal vehicle and left like he didn't just say he'd take me to the airport! This resulted in the person checking the car in having to take me via shuttle & it was VERY clear they were irritated about having to do so. The unnecessarily aggressive driving for a stop that's all of 3-4 minutes away & still ain't the airport- was a bit much. Professionalism should not be going out the window because of what hour it is, nor because you are having to do something for a customer due to your coworkers miscommunication. Direct your attitude toward THEM. It wasn't worth snapping on him ATP as I'm a lot smarter & just need to get to the airport for free-99. It's much easier to ignore the attitude & write this review to warn others that ROUTES ain't it. Re-ROUTE yourself to a known rental place & just spend the extra $3 a day & spare yourself the headache. I would NEVER rent with them again & do not recommend them at all. read more

If I could give negative stars, I would. And coming out of Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, that says a *lot*. Where to begin? Ah yes--**the hidden fees**, which are truly a masterclass in deception. I booked through Expedia, which proudly stated "*all taxes and fees included*" and "*unlimited mileage*." What they *meant* was "Surprise! The agency is about to double your cost at the counter and after you've returned the car." Apparently, driving to *South Carolina* means you've crossed the Berlin Wall, because there's a "crossing borders fee." DAILY for your entire rental-- even if you just cross state lines for one day. Oh, and once you cross that magical line, your "unlimited mileage" turns into "LOL, just kidding. Daily mileage is capped and you'll pay by the mile". None of this was disclosed until I was standing there--jet-lagged, luggage in hand--getting nickel-and-dimed like it was their Olympic sport. When I (very politely, might I add) pointed out that this sounded a lot like false advertising, the manager hit me with the customer service equivalent of a brick wall. Curt, dismissive, and actually told me, *"All car rental companies charge this--others charge more."* Sir, a 2-second Google search could prove otherwise. Then came the cherry on top: even though they market themselves as an "airport" rental agency, they're **not actually at the airport**. You take the tram to the rental garage, then wait for a shuttle like you're signing up for a mystery tour. I thought, "Well maybe they'll make it up on the return trip and drop me right at the departure terminal." Ha. Rookie mistake. You'll be taking that same ride back like a regretful contestant on a bad game show. Their outsourced customer service? About as helpful as a chocolate teapot. This is not my first rodeo with Atlanta car rentals, and trust me--some of them are bad. But this one? **This one is a new Olympic level of bad.* Hidden fees galore Dishonest advertising Rude staff Not actually at the airport A shuttle experience that would make a theme park blush Save yourself the headache. No amount of "cheap" is worth this level of scammy chaos. read more

If I could give zero stars I would. AVOID THIS CAR RENTAL PLACE AT ALL COSTS. Waited in line for an hour (only one person ahead of me) and then they didn't have my reservation despite me showing confirmation email. It was 11pm and they just didn't do anything about it, said sorry they don't have it. They were so slow, careless, and rude not only to me but everyone in there. These people don't have any pride in what they do and no customer service. I wanted that hour and half back of my life. What a nightmare read more

Be warned. Routes will not provide you with a car if you don't have a car insurance policy that can be transferred to their vehicle. I arrived to pick up my rental at Routes Atlanta airport office. When I explained that I have a worldwide car rental travel policy, they refused to accept it, even when I have used the policy to provide cover when hiring cars all over the world. I even used it in Orlando the previous week. The staff at Routes refused to give me a car unless I bought additional insurance from them. I have experienced some high pressure sales techniques when hiring cars, but I have never been made to feel like I have been conned. When I asked them to cancel the rental and refund my $240 they directed me to their customer service team and were totally unhelpful. Regarding the customer service team, they sent me a terse response which referred to the terms and conditions and refused to give me my money back. They didn't even address me by name. Just said "Dear Customer". When I asked why they don't make customers aware of the unusual insurance policy they ignored my query. Please be careful using this company. Customer care is not a priority, revenue is. read more

I wish I had read these reviews before booking with this place. I seriously want to know how or why anyone would give this company five starts! Our $120 rental will end up costing us over $300 by the time we're done. They require you to buy their insurance unless you bring your declarations page with you, on vacation. They did not honor the insurance that expedia allowed me to purchase. Had to cancel that. There are so many surprise charges on this bill. The building is an absolute dump. And we were lucky to get one of the last cars; others after us were told that cars were not going to be coming back for at least another 45 minutes. Only plus was the agent was somewhat nice and the car is decent. DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND BOOK ELSEWHERE! read more

The car I rented from Routes Car Rentals in Montreal through Economy Bookings was a good car at a good price. Pick-up was easy, and drop-off after hours was also relatively easy, although I needed to Uber from their location to the nearby airport. The negative is that they ignored their own contract. Instead of the "Mileage: Unlimited" on the contract, I was charged as a "customer with local driver's license - Mileage 200km/day", although I reside 4754 km away in the U.S.! Their responses to my two emailed complaints ignored that fact. I have not heard back, nor received the requested refund for the extra miles driven. The problem may lie with Economy Bookings, but neither outfit addressed my complaint satisfactorily. read more

Absolute worst experience, Expedia lied about the price also offered insurance on Expedia (which i bought) but then at the Routes office they told me i have to pay for more insurance also more hidden fees. For a 4 day rental 147$ more on top of the online price and insurance and I didn't even go out of state. Whats even more shady as I was returning, new employee asked "why do we owe you money?". She told me the manager will approve a 30$ return but I never got it. Also it's off the airport so shuttle is involved. Never again!!! read more

First off the driver was not in uniform he was wearing a skinny jean skinny multicolored jeans that look like the borale Borealis major and he did not have his hair wrapped then after not helping me out of the van he then drove off with our luggage still in the van and was gone for a player of about 15 minutes now the front desk person her face showed she didn't like her job the next thing with this company is hidden fees these hidden fees are ridiculous there's a $500 deposit whoever heard of such a thing that's not taken from the credit card now if I give you $500 cash when I return my car I'm going to expect $500 cash but you and I both know it don't work that way now we got to this hotel the countryside inn and country inn & suites I'm sorry that is the name of the hotel we're staying at we had a great we had a great breakfast egg sausage red little red potatoes chopped up grits there was a waffle maker there's biscuits for biscuits and gravy the gravy was out you know man is the coffee was nice and hot they kept the pots rotating and that was real good the customer service was nice because we got here early we couldn't get a joining rooms like we liked but what we ended up getting was a very spacious room that allowed me to be able to walk into the shower and sit down because I am disabled so the the country inn & suites next to Radisson I would give them a five-star rating the routes car rental baby no go somewhere else because for the simple fact I'm scared to look in my bags now cuz the gentleman drove off with my bags telling the car how can you do that you put the bags in the car you got to remember if we didn't drive that long for you to forget that you put bags in the car and you need to take bags out I'm just saying talk to me read more

They stole my phone to write themselves a review. There were a lot of hidden fees. And after an hour and a half wait in line and finally getting a car, then they tell you that the car can't cross state lines. read more

This is the worst off site shuttle I've ever rented from. lets me list the issues: 1: the driver picking us up played vulgar rap music while having a minor child in the car with us to the destination of the rental company. *****we waited over an hour to get our rental!!!! 2. they never tell you that you need to have on have your auto insurance to prove you have renter cove or they will charge you astronomical fees ** we had our insurance agent on the phone and they were still trying to charge us for extra fees!!!!! 3. they never pick up the phone!!! our flight was delayed and we tried to call to let them know but they didn't pick up.. when we got there they tried to tell us we were a "no show" and they would have to "see what they could do for us" even though A Lot was full of cars! we called multiple times and they never picked up! no customer service at all!!! 3. When dropping the car off, we had an early flight, but we tried to call ahead of time to let them know that we are coming in by 6 AM to make sure that the the shuttle was ready for us and no one picked up the phone. There is no customer service at this place. I would never recommend this place to anyone. Do not rent a vehicle here. Save your money rent somewhere else. if I could give this 10, I would. read more

Absolutely the worst place to rent a car at the Atlanta Intl Airport - you have to get picked up by Van outside of the car rentals to go off The airport....The man at the counter- Tino. He was absolutely rude to me condescending sarcastic, made you feel like you were going to steal the car and they added on extra fees if you drive the car out of state - FYI - they need new kind staff. read more

i booked a rental car through expedia. when i went to the counter, they do not rent to ga residents and advised me to contact expedia. ***i contacted expedia, and this is the response : hello tanya, we are following up about your request to cancel your booking and request a refund from routes. we spoke with routes to advocate for your refund. unfortunately, since your booking was reserved as non-refundable, they are unable to make any exceptions to their policy and will not be issuing a refund. we know this is disappointing. we always advocate for greater flexibility on behalf of our travelers, but routes has strict cancellation policies, and unfortunately, there's nothing else we can do at this time. best regards, jhon paul o." .. i am out $400.00 because of expedia, it should not be a choice on the website. everybody was very rude at this location, and please do not rent from them even if you're coming out of town with a ticket... customer service is free. you choose to work at the rental car place. it costs nothing to be nice and respectful. so rude workers at routes in atlanta, when you get bad rude and disrespect, know that it is god giving you a reflection of yourself. no vacation for these five children, stealing people's good money, and you know it is hard in these streets. be blessed, every social media site will be getting this review. t. smith read more

Just don't. Just pay the extra money for a real rental car company. They don't pick you up Del. The airport they try to trick you into buying their car insurance for 25 a day - even if you have insurance coverage . When you turn your car in, make sure you are prepared to wait a long time or call an uber because the shuttle just doesn't come and he doesn't answer the phone when they call it's a mess you have been warned smh read more

They charge to many surprise fees don't rent to locals. Off airport site must catch two shuttles

If you're looking for the cheapest car rental, you'll probably opt for Routes. This Routes Car Rental is located in College Park near the ATL airport and is off-site. Fair warning: they only rent out to tourists (Non-GA residents) and have a $350 pre-authorization charge. Now that is all out of the way- yes, it's cheap but totally worth it if you're pinching pennies. Once you arrive at the ATL airport, you have to take the sky train (or tram?) to the rental area. Once you get there, you have to take the free shuttle to the off-site Routes location. Keep in mind, the shuttle seems to come every 15-30 minutes (a bit random) so don't have any urgent plans right after you arrive. Once you get to Routes, there are several clerks that can help you. I picked a mystery car and got a very clean Volkswagen Jetta car. They inspect the car before handing you over the keys and let you know the amount of gas to refill it (if you don't choose prepaid) and you are on your way! When dropping off the car, you just drop it off right beside the building where it looks like a drive-thru. After they inspect it, you wait for the shuttle to come and take you back to the airport. Make sure you have a buffer before your flight since this location not in the airport and TSA lines are usually long (albeit fast). If the car is in good condition and you refilled the gas- they return your $350 within a few days. I had no issues with Routes- you definitely get a bang for your buck here. It is a bit of a hassle getting to and from the airport but not terrible. read more

See all

Scam ! Do not book on Priceline they force you to get insurance through them even if uour policy covers rental car , WORST EXPERIENCE ! And it's off site a pain to get to , not worth the few bucks you save , they are rude as shit on the counter read more

Do yourself a favor, do NOT rent from this company!! They will claim they do not work with your insurance because your insurance company hasn't paid recent claims, forcing you to buy their insurance. They lied and said that I would have a $75 fine for not having a tollbooth transponder if I go through a toll checkpoint, forcing me to pay $20 per day for my tolls when I used at most five dollars in tolls (the upselling pressure is unlike anything I have ever experienced). This is the worst rental car experience I've ever had. Due to their janky 'office' off airport property, you shuttle to their lot, you tend to be stuck, as they're not going to take you back to the airport. I should've used an Uber and just gone back to the airport. I did not and I paid heavily for that mistake. They also charge a fee for late cancellations, so you are screwed either way (probably less screwed eating the cancellation charge). I don't consider myself a naïve person, (admittedly I didn't do my research) but my wait time was so long, I was just ready to get the whole experience over with. I should've gone with my gut. The $500 deposit will be interesting to find out how long it takes me to be credited/released. I return the car tomorrow, who knows what that is going to be like. I now know this is probably one of the lowest rated car companies out there. Proceed with caution at the MCO Routes. 2 read more

Absolutely awful, my husband had to $180 for an extra driver which is bs and a $500 deposit hold. This is why the cars are so cheap.

Hidden fees, poor service, dirty cars. I will not recommend this company, if they told you the car is $25.00 a day expect to pay close to $100.00 after hidden fees. read more

An absolute scam. I rented a car at Routes.ca through carrentals.com, prepaid and non-refundable. When I arrived to pickup the car, the agent said insurance was mandatory. I showed my Allstate ID Card... not enough, they needed to see the policy. I pulled that up on my phone... they said it was still not enough and insisted I buy their CDW or I could not have the car I had already paid for. Pure extortion. After the trip, I checked with my Allstate agent... yep, my policy is full coverage on rentals; in his words "you were ripped off". I tried Routes customer service via phone and email, and all I got was the run around. They kept saying "you did not show insurance". Total lie. Completely dishonest company. If I could give 0 stars, I would. Awful. read more

PLEASE do not use this place. it's a scam with tremendous underline fees. The initial price is just a bait and switch. Hidden, daily out of state driving fees and they are not clean. read more

Ahh very torn on reviewing this car rental company! For me personally, renting a car from here worked out overall. The customer rep that I worked with was courteous and professional and got us on our way with our rental, giving us a modest upgrade. I had booked my car on Orbitz for a managers special car and didn't know what that meant but it really didn't mean anything. The price was good--a few dollars cheaper than the other big name rental companies. I had never heard of Routes before so this was our first time renting. Getting to the actual Routes rental company was a little annoying as it's not in the airport and you need to take a shuttle there. Finding the shuttle pickup spot was confusing and not marked clearly at the airport. Also on the return back, we had a super early morning flight and they didn't start running the shuttles until 6am. So we had to Uber to the airport after returning the car which was a huge inconvenience. There were a few things I saw with others though that I thought sucked for them...one if you're local and have a GA drivers license you can't rent a car there. There were actually customers that were stranded there as they couldn't rent at all. Also you're not allowed to drive the car out of state which was fine for us but I can imagine problematic for most people. If I had a choice I'd rather pay a few more extra to rent directly from the airport as the shuttles were reliable and we saved a few dollars a day by going with Routes, not much more to be worth the hassle. But if it was my only option, I would book knowing there may be issues along the way. read more

Avoid this company at all costs. They charged me $16.99 per day to leave the state of Georgia. I traveled to visit family in Alabama which was two hours away. I was considering not paying this fee and canceling the reservation. I would have been hit with an additional $75 fee. They seem to have an addition hidden fee for everything. Beware! read more

***BEWARE *** This company is in the process of getting sued: They utilized my cc information to repair SOMEONE ELSEs damages!! They refused to admit what they did was ethically and morally wrong. They have no regards or interest to correct their wrong doing. They continue to point towards a very vague coverage that I purchased through them, yet they continued to indicate I waived it. Clearly I have evidence of purchased coverage and evidence of the damages prior to me even receiving the keys at their location. Their so called customer service is based somewhere in Canada and is very difficult to get a hold of any one. Please stay away from this location, they dont deserve your business, at least this location, but this company overall does not know how to admit their fault. Their car has since been repaired and im stuck with it all. This is wrong and they know it. And this is why they have forced me to take legal action after failed attempts for them to make things right. read more

Don't book with this company! Far from the airport! Bus took 45 mins, hard sell on insurance, $500.00 deposit. Cars are in rough shape!

This place is a scam, DO NOT USE! They charged me a "Border Crossing Fee" for each day I had the car, despite my explicitly telling the agent I did not plan to leave the border and did not opt into billing for that (and I never left the border). The agent - a guy who told me he was from Jamaica and walks with a limp - snuck it into my contract right before telling me that I was "signing that I denied to purchase insurance." Customer service was no help and insisted that I "opted in" for the service, despite my explaining that I remembered, in detail, telling the agent I did not opt into or accept it. SCAM AND FRAUDULENT - DO NOT USE! read more

Do not use this company. Terrible customer service and only one shuttle. Avoid, from Booking.com read more

I would give zero stars if I could. This company is a total rip off. They MAKE you purchase their insurance with a high deductible so if you have an accident, they can charge your credit card at will. Avoid them at all costs. read more

This is a follow up to my recent review of Routes car rental Atlanta. I was charged $83.74 on the day I showed up to rent a vehicle. I woke up this morning to find that they've charged my bank account another $107.15. None of this was discussed at the counter. I was told I would be paying the toll only. Where did all of these fees come from? I never got to read the contract prior to signing. Now, I can't get ahold of anyone. PLEASE DO NOT USE ROUTES!! read more

Routes - Car Rental Near Me - College Park, Georgia

The worst car rental experience of my life. If '0 stars' was an option, it would've been selected. Shame on them. After complaining about the experience, one of their workers recommended using Hertz... absolutely pathetic. read more

Staff was very rude and slow, seemed like they were annoyed they had customers. They nickel and dime you at every turn and ambush you with extra charges. Every other car rental at ATL airport is in the building you can get to on the sky train but Routes is off site so you have to get another shuttle to get there. read more

We parked our vehicle on Saturday, July 15th. We returned on Monday, July 17th to pick up our car and noticed that there was a scratch to the passenger side bumper of the car. When we notified the agent at the counter, they provided us with a phone number and email address of the General Manger on a sticky note. I asked what was the process when an incident like this happens on their property. We were told that we had to contact him so he can review the cameras to determine when and how the incident occurred. I asked if anyone was going to come out to file a report and/or take a photo of my vehicle. The agent said to be honest with you there is a sign in the front that says they are not really responsible for any cars parked on the lot. Another agent suggested that we call the police to file a report. When the police arrived and he asked if they knew about the incident. The agent said that they didn't know how long we were here because they hadn't looked up our reservation. They also did not have access to the camera. I am extremely disappointed at the way we were treated. They did not show empathy or concern about condition of our vehicle and while in their care. read more

See all

This was an experience from August 27th of this year: In a nutshell: You can't reach anyone by phone-EVER so don't try. It was the only off property car rental at the airport-should have been a red flag but it was cheaper- they define the old saying ' you get what you pay for' The Shuttle was pretty quick though- ride got to Routes at 9 after my flight landed at just after 8ish When I walked in I was told to pick up a rental we HAD to sign in Signed in with 2 people ahead of me Watched a walk in who wanted to extend their rental walk right up and get helped-NO sign in required Watched another woman walk in 15 minutes later and get helped-NO sign in required Person immediately ahead of me waited 24 minutes to get helped I finally got helped 37 minutes after arriving. Got to counter, mentioned the wait time he said they got to me as quickly as possible- which is crap because they handled multiple walk ins before me They made me jump through a million hoops over the insurance- I have NEVER had to do anything but initial I was declining insurance and move on. They wouldn't accept my car insurance because my car was not 2020 or newer and I had Capital One secondary coverage which they also made me find all the information on what was covered- again I have never had to deal with such BS ever. Had to purchase their liability insurance or I couldn't get my rental. This was by far one of the most awful rental car experiences EVER. the only upside was the pleasant shuttle drivers and when I brought the car back they took the keys and let me get straight to the shuttle to catch my flight. Buyer Beware when trying to find a cheaper route . read more

You get what you pay for. It's an off airport location. Need to take the ATL airport air train to the car rental center then pick up a shuttle bus to take you to Sullivan street location. The Shuttle bus pick up location at the car rental center is not obvious so I had to call them to find it. When i eventually found it the pick up was quite seamless and only a 7 min drive to the rental depot. At the rental depot when I waived the liability insurance and LDW the guy at counter wanted to see my full car insurance policy, not just proof of insurance. Never seen that before. He also wanted to see "loss of use" coverage. Meaning loss of revenue from the vehicle for Routes Car Rental of up to $1,000 /day. I showed him full GEICO coverage and Amex gold coverage for damage to the vehicle but politely told him to shove loss of use. As far as I'm concerned that is a risk of doing business in Car Rental, not the customer's. Only when I threatened to cancel the rental and call an Uber did he back down. Dirt cheap but too much hassle for me to use these guys again. read more

Avoid this car rental company like the plague! I reserved a car via Orbitz based on their quoted rate only to find out when boarding their shuttle bus, that I was going to have to pay another $17 per day to take the car out of GA. There was NO mention of this fee in their pricing when I made the reservation. I consider this a bate and switch and plan to report them to the GA Attorney General's office and the better business bureau. To make matters even worse, I was charged a $220 fee / fine for leaving GA. I wish I could have actually given them negative stars!!! read more

I rented a car from this company on April 6th and returned it on April 8th. It's now been over three weeks, and they're still holding $500 from my account. This is completely unprofessional. Not only are they not connected to the airport (which is extremely inconvenient), but their rates are high, and some of the staff were rude. I would strongly advise others to look elsewhere. read more