I have been with Pemco for probably around 20 years. I am looking to get a different company ASAP. It's bad enough having the auto rates go up like they did and for 6 months at a time but my real gripe is this....I received a letter mandating I up my insurance to $69,000 for three outdoor sheds. 2 sheds were $800 shed kits and the other is an old shed, (over 20 years at least) that besides being plywood nailed to 2x4's, literally has no floor, walls, ceiling, insulation, electricity or foundation. It's an empty shell that is used solely for storage! They sent out a signature page mandating we double the amount of coverage. We told them they were wrong in their evaluation and the response was this is what their assessor said they were worth so that's what they go with period. And on top of that, we have an old roof on our house but it's in good condition because of the severe pitch, no leaks, moss, etc. Their assessor himself said the roof appeared to be in good shape. But because of the age alone, they have given me just 6 months to do a full replacement. I must have pictures and invoices proving this to them by August! The letter I received said this is for my peace of mind. When I'm mandated to do things which includes a very huge expense (that I don't have!) within months, does it look like I have peace of mind?! And really appreciated the condescending person from Pemco especially since it was followed by days of ignored messages left on voicemail. read more

update #2 So i switched my policies over from a different state to Oregon and i now have two bills due from this company. Turns out that they are charging me a full month already for the new policy(expected) and are charging me for the old policy because (I was paying it backwards and needed to pay for the unpaid time i was insured). This was never explained to me(paying backwards) so the extra bill was an unwelcome surprise during a rough time. Be careful and make sure to have them explain anything you have any questions on otherwise you may end up with a surprise bill at the least opportune moment. read more

My wife and I and our two cars were with Pemco for a year. My wife was stopped for a dead tail light, then couldn't find her driver's license and was cited for "Failure to have license on person." I had a windshield replaced to the tune of $250 of which I paid a $100 deductable. For these two offenses Pemco increased our rates by 25% when I went to renew the policy. So if you ever had an accident, even a small "fender bender" Pemco would apparently increase the premiums astronomically. Anyway, I'm not going to hang around and find out. Other than that they were fine. They have a nice, easy to use app, and they were certainly inexpensive for the first year. By far the least expensive. We both have stellar driving records. But... a 25% increase... I think that's a tad rich. read more

Pemco is the worst insurance company we have ever been with. Our agent convinced us to change over. Mistake- she said it was a premium company. Refused a tow of 1 1/2 miles, Pemco claimed that local tow companies were to expensive. They wanted my son to wait 4-6 hours at 10 pm for a tow truck from over the mountain. We live in Bend, there are lots of tow companies here. I called a local company and paid the $75 charge out of pocket. We have no claims, no accidents, excellent credit and now they want $150 more per month for auto and cancelled our homeowners for no reason. Going back to Liberty Mutual where we came from originally. read more

I really wish I could give Pemco 0 stars. After being with this insurance company for well over 15 years we had to file a home owners claim for the first time. We found out that there was a leak under the house which caused extensive damage. The claim adjuster was so robotic and severely lacked customer service. We were told that the claim is denied because the damage was to the "rods". However, two different general contractor's accessed the damage and stated that it was from the wax ring on the toilet. Now we are stuck paying thousands out of pocket - save yourself the trouble and save money - dont use Pemco!!! read more

There are lots of home insurance companies out there offering all kinds of deals. The question? Is that insurance company there when you need them. You get what you pay for. Pemco is not the cheapest insurer out there but when we needed them they were there-100%. Our claims adjuster Roger made the decision to completely support our claim-- and a few of our friends thought that we would not get their backing. We purchased a house with foundation issues-- a sagging main beam in the crawlspace and crawlspace excavation done by day laborers which undermined part of the foundation perimeter. Roger listened to me, reviewed the foundation company's recommended fixes (Terra Firma Foundations) and fully funded the work. A huge help to us when we were in need. No ifs, ands or buts... almost unheard of from most insurance company's. Yes, Pemco costs more but they are a local company and they had our back. We are very grateful. They are worth every cent we have payed. Thank you Roger and thanks to the good folks at Pemco. read more

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Pemco Insurance will cancel you if you make more than one claim in 3 years. They also will cancel you if you receive more than 1 driving ticket. They increase your rates year after year even if there aren't any claims and then cancel you when one if the aforementioned things happen. I received a cancellation notice at renewal time because my neighbors tree fell on my house and a theft claim was filed 2 years ago for property in my vehicle. They paid out but say there's too much frequency in claims. Technically I had one claim for theft. I have NO POWER over my neighbor's healthy tree and the wind!! So if you want to pay for insurance and be afraid to file a claim when you need help in fear of being cancelled.....this is the company for you!! read more

I have had Pemco for over 20 years on my cars. As soon as you inquire about insuring a new driver they doubled my premium and will not remove the driver from the policy. Liability only on a $10K car was going to be almost $250/month. I ended up moving my daughter and family cars and home insurance to State Farm saved about 25% overall plus have a new umbrella policy. If you have children cancel Pemco immediately and shop around. Cancel Pemco Insurance, @Pemco, Kids and Pemco, Pemco Insurance Commission Complaint. read more

Pemco is not the company that they used to be. I have been a customer for 35 years. They just Sent me a letter in the mail that said that they are dropping my coverage because of claim frequency. No phone call to let us know that your claim frequency might put you in jeopardy of losing your policy ....no just a very unprofessional and cold letter saying your coverage is now dropped. Reached out to them and they said they didn't have my phone number. Of course they've had my phone number!!! I've had this phone number for 20 years and they've contacted me about claims so that is baloney. All these claims are not my fault and many are fender benders and uninsured drivers. The last being someone who hit my car while it was parked during my brothers funeral. This is not the same Pemco of 20 years ago. read more

They are a lot like you, a little different. They are an insurance company who doesn't provide benefits paid for and promised when needed. I was surprised to see the overwhelmingly negative ratings for a company that I had always considered a Northwest icon until I had my first claim in fourteen years of being a customer. For all of their rhetoric of being customer owned and 'taking care of you like no one else can', when needed for roadside assistance they repeatedly dropped the ball, and they have lost another customer. Our car began overheating on the freeway, so I pulled over in Seattle to figure out what to do. I checked my policy and confirmed that I had tow coverage, so I called PEMCO to request assistance. I provided them my location (including opting in on sending GPS location), told them my car was AWD, gave them the address I needed the car taken to, and told them how many people needed to be transported. 1st tow truck: Two wheel tow vehicle. When the first driver arrived (after going to the wrong address first), I told him he could not tow my car with his truck, because it is AWD. He asked me if I was sure that it was AWD and then said they would need at least an hour to get a flat bed to my location. I called PEMCO again. 2nd tow truck: The truck showed up with two people inside (after also getting lost finding me with address and GPS location provided), with a truck cab with bucket seats and a small jump seat in the middle that MIGHT have been ok for a child to sit in. After explaining that I had been assured by PEMCO that transportation would be provided for me, my gf, and our son, he said there was nothing they could do. I called PEMCO again. 3rd tow truck: Flatbed. Hooray! Driver: "Just give me your keys, and I'll take the car." Me: "You're supposed to be taking us with the car" Driver: "I'm not taking anyone in my truck." Me: "Go away." Each time I called PEMCO, I was ASSURED that the correct tow vehicle was being sent. After the 2nd tow truck, the agent insisted that they were going to get it right this time, and PEMCO was actually going above and beyond my guaranteed tow coverage amount to get a tow truck out ASAP. Again, I have been a loyal customer for 14 years. Even after raising my homeowners insurance 20% this year, I was happy to pay a bit of a premium to stay with a company where customers "come first". This single incident changed that completely. All of my policies will be transferred to USAA on Tuesday. I don't know what has happened to PEMCO, but they are not to be trusted now. read more

We have been with Pemco for 30+ years. We currently have 9 policies with them but have had as many as 11 at one time. We pay them a small fortune each year in premiums. We have always been pretty happy up until now but the true test of an insurance company comes when you have a claim. We had an ice dam this winter during a period of severe weather and it caused a roofing issue and steady leak inside a wall for some time that we were unaware of until my wife was vacuuming and felt wet carpet. As I investigated, I found that the sheetrock was wet and when I cut it away found some pretty extensive damage. We have a $1000 deductible and chose to file a claim after having a trusted roofing company look at the problem and temporarily fix it. This was back in Dec and here it is almost April and the Pemco adjuster is really giving us the runaround and saying it's mostly a maintenance issue. I'm not sure what a healthcare worker taking care of covid patients is supposed to do in the middle of the winter to "maintenance" the outside of their home against rain, wind, and freezing temperatures to prevent an ice dam. So the short story is that now Pemco had a roofer from Portland come up and look and I'm sure he also will side with Pemco and not want to pay to have the damage repaired because it's our fault. We've already had to hire a construction company on our own, out of pocket, to fix the damage as we are nearing 4 months of our living room being torn up. We will certainly be writing to the President of Pemco and the state Insurance Commissioners office. We will also be shopping for a new insurance company to move our polices (9) to. My advice as a longtime customer of Pemco is that they aren't the insurance company they once were and do not do business with them. They are happy to take your money for insurance premiums but refuse to pay when you actually need them. read more

I have been a customer of pemco since 1993 (count them-24 years). Today I receive a letter saying my policy is canceled due to 3 fender bender types of accidents (none over $2500). Lets do a little math. They have paid out $7,500. In 23 years, do you think they received at least $7500???? I understand they have a business to run but truthfully, they have no loyalty to their long time customers. My advice. Buy somewhere else where they actually may care. read more

I was with this company for 30 years! I was very happy until about a year ago when I was rear ended and they raise my rates so high it was ridiculous. They used to never raise my rates when it was somebody else's fault. The customer service has changed they no longer care about their customers. I would never recommend this company ever again they aren't what they used to be 30 years ago! Safe driving record doesn't apply anymore! I give it no stars! My insurance adjuster was more stressful than the car accident!!!! read more

Been a Pemco customer for many years. Last June tried to save some money by going with Progressive car insurance. Signed up for 6 months but thought their policy was not as good as Pemcos. Wrote to Pemco (Julie S.) about getting quote for next 6 months. This ended up texting each other back and forth several times. I then realized she had no intention of letting me sign up again. This may seem counter to a business rejecting a customer but after all the back and forth texts (which I saved) I really believe this has become a personal 'should have stayed with us' sort of thing. If Pemco wants me to send those texts then someone there will come to the same conclusion. read more

We are long time PEMCO auto insurance policy holders. Our teenage son crashed his ride.... first no one injured which was very good. PEMCO Insurance was awesome! From John Floyd who took our claim to the adjuster who negotiated a very fair settlement. PEMCO really is top grade. We are very pleased with PEMCO and their employees who were helpful, understanding, nonjudgmental and most of all personal which meant so much to our family. You really get what you pay for! Thank you PEMCO! read more

PEMCO Insurance - After repairs - Home & Rental Insurance Near Me - Seattle, Washington

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If I could give one star I would. They pride themselves on not covering accidents when their insured are at fault. Jennifer Menendez is the most vile, rude and combative adjuster I've ever dealt with. She threatened to deny my claim out of anger and then she did deny it. She will be getting reported to her management, BBB and insurance commission. Please understand if you are hit by a Pemco insured driver you are screwed, avoid at all costs. read more

Switched to progressive and saved 1100 a year AND have better policy. Perfect record. They used to have good customer service with personal agents, now its just a call center. I gave them a chance to give me a fair rate and the salesman said "that's the rate". If more people checked how much they could save elsewhere this place would be out of business in a heartbeat, and it should. No longer a good PNW company, just highway robbers. read more

I have been a Pemco customer since the 1980's. Just recently I had a car claim, but the other driver who was definitely at fault had no insurance, I filed a claim, I paid my $500 deductible, Pemco only paid $170 of the balance, other driver slammed into me in a parking lot he was in a hurry, no fault of mine. They raised my car insurance (my car is getting older each year not newer) and I was notified by e-mail $110.00; I had a pipe break in my home, major work to get it fixed, what a headache Pemco was in the way it was handled. I have not filed any claims as long as I can remember these were the only two. It took all summer to fix pipe and repair rooms etc, now I get another e-mail they are raising my home owners over $100 per auto payment, no letter of explanation, e-mails are also easy to miss. The pipe break no my fault, have an older home 1964 and the pipe was broken for many years the plumbers said. Pemco was horrible with me on the whole ordeal with their lack of professionalism and communication. It wasn't until I got angry with whoever answered the phone that they finally addressed my concerns. Beware if you have to file a claim with them, good luck, because I didn't have any. Will be calling other insurance companies for quotes. read more

I took out Pemco insurance on multiple cars as well as rental insurance. The process was all simple and pretty reasonable. I called in to ask advice as our very friendly St. Bernard hurt another dog whilst playing. As a precaution Pemco advised that I should submit a claim. In the end nothing was claimed as the dog was just a little shaken up. Pemco have now notified me that they are canceling my policy because of the claim. This is exceptionally poor taste especially since they gave me "advice" on this and I was simply being proactive. I will now look elsewhere and advise my work colleagues to re-evaluate who they are insured with as this is what happens even when you don't claim. read more

Had a tree branch fall through my roof. Made a claim to PEMCO, who sent their own roofer to do an inspection. The guy didnt even go on both sides of the roof, said there was no damage, which was under a mass of pine needles blown over roof by storm, and said I just didnt maintain my roof. Yes, the roof is old but it wasnt leaking. Why replace a working roof? PEMCO said the roof was too old and DROPPED my policy. They only gave me two months to find another company, and all roofers are out months here. It will take 4 or 5 months to have a new roof, and no other companies will take me until its fixed!! This mean without insurance my lender will forclose. To top it off, even though they said there was no damage (which was the same as calling me a liar) they siad they would pay for half the roof and wrote me a puny check BEFORE I agreed! I had wanted to get a better roofers opinion, which is my legal right. I have the proof now that their inspector was inept. They tell me even with a complete new roof if I paid for it---they would still drop me for the claim. I may actually lose my house over this. read more

Absolutely terrible experience. Terrible communication, terrible rates, terrible billing protocol, terrible customer service. All around a bad experience. I moved my renters and auto policies over to State Farm and have been treated with kind, undersatnding custumer care representatives, lower-than-expected rates with better-than-expected coverage, and speedy turnaround on paperwork, etc. My advice would be to stay away from PEMCO. read more

I've been insured with Pemco for 20 years (geeze that makes me sound old!) They've always been very good to me. I was a bit disappointed with my recent experience, though. My car was stolen and once it was recovered, it took FOREVER to get Pemco to approve the claim/pay the repair bill. My car was in the shop almost four weeks for about five days worth of work. At one point in time two weeks into it, the body shop actually asked me to call Pemco and rattle some cages. They sent the estimate and photos THREE TIMES before Pemco dealt with it. When I finally got my claims adjuster on the phone she tried to blame it on the body shop. In any case, they did approve the claim and all turned out well in the end. I ended up being out of pocket about $1000 though for incidental stuff Pemco didn't cover. All the piddly stuff adds up fast! By the way, if you're going to steal a car, is it really necessary to take EVERYTHING? Yes, I understand taking my iPod - it was dumb of me to leave it in there. But did you really NEED my tire jack? Floor mats? Maps? Flashlight? Flares? Owner's manual? Vehicle registration? Pet gate? read more

I could not ask for more out of an insurance company. I've been a customer with them for many years and have never had a bad experience. I've been in two large car accidents and both times I was met with a sense of urgency, compassion and great customer service. I would recommend them to anyone I know. read more

the worst insurance company ever, after I get an accident I claimed my accident then they told me my collision deductible is $5,000 that's unacceptable, and unbelievable. I don't recommend it to anybody. read more

I've had pemco for over 3 years now for renters and auto insurance. I called to get a quote home owners insurance and the gentlemen I talked to was the most uninterested not friendly guy I've ever talked to. When I told him the quote he gave me was quiet a bit more then some others I had gotten he was like "oh ok, well let us know if you want to move forward with us" after I tried asking him why it was so much more especially since I have car insurance with them. After I finished talking to him I called Farmers, not only were they several hundred less a year, it was more coverage and the agent I talked to was super helpful and interested in getting my business. All of this was after my rates doubled after moving from Oregon to Washington and I was still wanting to keep my policy. But I guess customer service means nothing to this company. read more

Pemco agent encouraged me to make a very small claim and now I am losing all my property insurance with low risk insurance carriers. My dream is ruined and Pemco says it's misunderstanding on my part! The words from the agent were "You will only lose the 3 year no claim discount and will not lose your coverage. And the discount is so small that it's totally worth it to make the claim." Anyways, so now I cannot purchase my dream condo. We are only 1 week to closing. And I cannot sell my current townhouse at market price either because the next owner might have issue getting good insurance rate for this property given the claims made. I have wasted hours trying to find a solution and all Pemco does is saying I misunderstood them and they will not change their decision to insure me. I hope you can find a good, honest insurance carrier who cares about their customers. If their agent had told me the honest impact, I would have not made the small claims. I am losing way more than the claim amount now. And all Pemco does now is blame me! read more

I've been with PEMCO for 13yrs (home/car/rentals). Last year I had my first claim due to a busted pipe. +2 stars because the adjuster was quick to take care of my claim (not the best experience ever) and when things were going great and I was adding more properties/teens/and cars to my policy the agents were very nice and it's great to talk to a live person so quickly..... -3 stars because when calling with an issue of any kind (removing policies, and that one claim) it feels like I'm bothering them with my needs and I find myself being extra nice to them to try to cheer them up. I'm not sure that prompt, live customer disservice is worth the huge cost of using them. I've recently switched my vehicles to another agency and am spending half the money I was paying Pemco (even with all my supposed discounts). Home owner's insurance is also less elsewhere, but I'm okay to wait until those policies expire before changing them. I knew from the get go I was paying extra for the awesome customer service.... I no longer feel it's worth that cost. Update -1 more star... In December I sold my old rental house. I explained to the agent, when I called to cancel, that I wanted to make sure everything was in order as my ex was on that particular policy because his name was also still on that mortgage. She assured me everything would be fine. So, I get the refund check and guess what? My name wasn't even on it! Not even an "and!" Just him!! Thankfully he's a nice person and we just traded checks! I've already switch my vehicles, next month I'm switching my home too. read more

I have been with Pemco for 6 years (auto + house) and had no claims. However they raised my insurance premium a few times and this year it was raised again 10%, although I should have received a 2% discount per their policies (another year claims free). I just talked with them and I was told that the 2% discount is included in my rate. The hike would have been higher otherwise, and the hike is related to the insurance industry overall, not only with my particular case (no claims, very good credit history). I had an much better estimate from AllState last year but didn't act on it. Will do it now, though and I'll update the post with the savings (hopefully). read more

First, the positives (+1 star). When you call their 800 number, you get a human immediately. It's kind of jarring when you expect an automated system and get a human instead. And the adjuster has been professional and responsive to my phone calls and emails; just not the actual claim. Now, the negatives. I was involved in a auto collision with one of PEMCO's drivers and their driver hasn't provided a statement to PEMCO a month after the accident. To my adjuster's credit, the adjuster has told me that he has left numerous calls and even the opportunity to email. Despite ample time provided to their driver, PEMCO refuses to work on what I believe is reasonably clear and consistent information from a police report, photographs, and my statement. The fact that PEMCO is implicitly okay with that behavior points to me that they are not allowing their employees to do the right thing and/or they're okay with not being reasonably responsive. Now, when I see PEMCO ads, I see that being "a little different" isn't different in a good way. read more

I bought a house with my girlfriend last year. I'm not sure why I'm writing this review now, perhaps it is the constant nagging the conversation has had on my psyche over the past several months. We needed to buy home owners insurance as a requirement per our mortgage company. We received a quote from PEMCO and they were the cheapest. We pulled the trigger. Going through the finalizing paperwork, we were asked 40+ questions. One of the questions, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" I replied, "Yes... Several years ago. I work in sales and I currently make good money. My crime is a thing of the past." To make a disappointing experience short, my girlfriend and I were rejected for no good reason except "You are a felon." I even offered to have my mother and father (who are financially comfortable) co-sign on behalf of my 'short-comings.' to eliminate the perceived risk. PEMCO didn't care and flatly refused to insure us. 1 star for the disrespect of felons, priggishness as if my money isn't as green as others and the lack of clarity upon rejection. This is a company that looks at you as if you are a number, not a person. Stay away from this company. I'm glad I wasn't able to give these people my money. We went with PROGRESSIVE and ended up bundling with my girlfriends auto insurance. read more

Worst people to deal with, they will love you when taking your money, but have any issues at all and BAM!!! Canceled policies. Though they will not allow you to terminate home owners which they have received the payment for the year.. Filthy greedy, useless, inhuman scumbags! read more

Yesterday, I walked into Pemco and greeted the person who worked at the counter. She was very rude and disrespectful. I was being respectful the whole entire time while she was giving me attitude. If you do not enjoy your job, don't work there at all. You don't have to ruin another persons day by your unhappiness. Will not be returning because of this terrible service. read more

I had great experience with PEMCO for years up until I had to use my Ins due to a minor collision. The collision repair company estimated my car wrong and I called the Ins adjuster and they wouldn't work with me the customer or own up to my car being repaired horribly due to the bad estimate. I won't ever recommend them to anyone. Not a fan anymore.... read more

I have been insured with PemCo for 5 years without any claim, tickets etc. Earlier this year I received a ticket, which is the only ticket I have received in over ten years. PemCo raised my rate over $240 per year. When I called to ask for clarification they gave me a canned response about market changes and lower fuel prices - clearly they didn't even open my file!! I would expect PemCo to handle this situation better considering my pristine record with them. They could at least provide an actual explanation!! This incident proves to me they clearly only care about the bottom line and do not care about individual customers. This is very disappointing considering I have been very happy with them up to this point. The fact that their employees won't actually discuss the issue is more concerning. read more

HOW MANY BAD REVIEWS CAN ONE COMPANY HAVE!?!? Well here is another...same as ALL the rest. PEMCO hooks you, jacks up your rates, and tries to extort money from you when you cancel. PEMCO SUCKS!!!! And John - your heartfelt, computer generated responses - aren't helping.... read more

I had car insurance for 3 years and home insurance for one year now with pemco. They had raised my car insurance rate when i added a new vehicle. So i cancelled it. It was exactly the same coverage but 40% cheaper elsewhere. Now they sent me mail that my home insurance increased by around 200$ for next year. I had ZERO (000) claims. I loved this company before. I guess this company claims to be local and great but at the end all insurance companies are the same. read more

BAIT & SWITCH I needed insurance, clicked on the Pemco advertisement for a good deal on insurance. I reluctantly was required to give all of my personal credit information, I'm a 700 score. I honestly answered questions about my families driving record. (1 accident over 3 years ago and 1 ticket 2 years ago. They quoted me $3900 for 12 months for a Camry and a small Lexus SUV. I'm thinking, crazy right, I'm currently paying $3000 & I thought that was too much. No problem, moving on waste of time....NO, I get a call, let me help you. I think we can do better, 3 days later they change my quote to $7000, WTF. I called, sent email, asked for an explanation, no call? BUYER BEWARE...this company is a predator. I run a business with 40 employees, I provide insurance quotes to over 50 customers a month at my vehicle dealership, safe to say, Pemco isn't worthy of a referral. Sorry to say I won't be getting my 2 hours of time nor my privacy back, but maybe I can save my fellow Americans some grief. read more

I have had Pemco Insurance for the past 25 years and the reality is that they only want to insure zero risk people, and despite the low amount of risk you expose them to, they find ways to increase your rates. We have been claim free for YEARS, yet they tried to increase our boat premiums by 75%!!! Our auto insurance and homeowners are also rising each year despite having no claims. When I last called to discuss this and threatened to do business elsewhere, I was met with a "go ahead" sort of response, so we have begun leaving Pemco. We have already gotten a better deal on boat insurance through Progressive, have a better quote for homeowners through Travelers, and will be moving our auto insurance at the beginning of next year. The only valued clients Pemco has are the ones that quietly accept higher premiums year over year without filing any claims. read more

Twenty days out and the claim has been paid. Vehicle was not "Totaled". Not happy with customer service. They didn't stay in touch- keep me in the loop. They left me hanging thinking the vehicle was getting totaled. I spent 6 hours faxing recipes for the vehicle in order to prove its value. A customer service manager assured me that she would call back later in the day, but didn't receive a call back from her until two days later- after leaving another message for her. Not the level of service I've experienced in the past, but in the end they did take care of the claim. 02/12/2014 Claim completed. I'm now satisfied. read more

Great customer service but latest price increases have forced me to change companies. I annually compare costs among 5-7 companies and PEMCO has always been either the cheapest or competitive enough to not warrant a change. Quite the difference this year. They were the most expensive of all the companies I compared. Not just a little more expensive either....for virtually the same coverages I saved about $800($1705 vs $2498) on my combined 2 cars and home annually. Flo definitely came through for me. When I questioned PEMCO on their rates I got the it is what it is type response. That kind of savings warrants changing even if it isn't renewal time. read more