I cannot express how disappointed I am in my experience with Milgard. I purchased a door in Spring of 2019 to match a previous door purchased a few years prior. I waited several months and when it came in, the measurements and style of door were incorrect. We had the door re-made and waited several months for it. The second door came in and the upper window trim was incorrect. We waited several months again and the new door was installed in December. This door does not function properly. When first installed, it could not be opened and closed with ease. A technician came out and I feel he was trying to convince me that I should accept a door that doesn't work well. He adjusted the door so that it would open and close but now the door leaks cold air into the house. It also still does not open and close seamlessly. I called and left a voicemail last week and it has been four days and I still have not heard back from you. I do not recommend that anyone buy doors and windows from Milgard. read more

Our general contractor used Milgard for all our windows when we did a complete rebuild in 2003. We loved the look and performance (both insulation and sound.) Over the past 15 years 4 of the 35 double pane windows have lost seal and clouded... and each time Milgard has honored the lifetime guarantee and replaced them. Service has been prompt, and the techs have been great! read more

Had a problem with my sliding door and the company from Temecula saved me by replacing my door under lifetime Warranty. Bridgette Horan was a jewel to work with to solve a tough problem. Thanks read more

I have to say, as great as their reputation is for quality (and I have to reserve judgment on that -- I assume that will live up to expectations), their service has been horrible. I never write reviews, but feel compelled to after now spending nine months and multiple service visits for them to try and fix our doors. I think the toughest part is that they only reserve Tuesdays for Seattle service visits, so it takes a LONG time to get them out. The service people that come out are friendly, but five visits to determine the issue is a LOT... read more

Horrible, horrible customer service. Not sure how they're still in business. They installed our door incorrectly, and we've made at least 5 appointments now. Three times they forgot an appointment was scheduled and twice they brought the wrong sized door. It's been over a year now and our back door is still not fixed. Irvine Pacific (builder) has also stepped in, but haven't made much progress. read more

Iv been installing milgard products for years and quality control has really beeen thrown out of the window. I deal with failing window units on a regular bases. And the venders they have you buy thru damage the product badly due to they're largest supplier they have in my are isn't experienced with glass product storage. I arrive on mAny accounts with handles directly on glass stacked with multiple panels on top. The vinyl line is the worst. They ship out so dirty with a black Resin or residue all over the units in every unreachable spot. Considering that you make yourselfs soooo exclusive with your quotas to even carry a account. We expect a presentable product for our customers. I on a regular replace your failing units just to gEt the job done instead of waiting months for a replacement. Milguard was a great product at one time, but know with the filth of the units and bad handling from your vendors I will no longer ever recommend your products and we're a large thriving glass company in our area. Please get you quality under control and train your vendors about proper storage. read more

The level of customer dissatisfaction is unfathomable and appears to be the only thing that they take pride in. After almost every door and window failed, they've scheduled 8 appointments and each one was like an episode of the 3 Stooges, minus the comedy. At least the Stooges would apologize! It's been almost a year since my first call for warranty repair and many issues still remain. Each appointment requires all furnishings to be cleared and then reassembled by the homeowner, which in our case is very labor intensive. A service call cancellation phone message was received at the appointment time of our last service call promising a follow-up which never happened, even after another email and month. Their crews have been rude, unwilling to wear mask, destructive, manipulative, careless, irresponsible and highly unprofessional. They've left in the middle of a service call and after other calls without announcement, left messes, unfulfilled promises, lost property and failed to follow through. I was called a liar and after producing photographic proof to the contrary, I never received even an apology. Subsequent water and installation damages due to their poor workmanship, became my responsibility to get repaired and pay for. After many emails and months, many of my questions and concerns still remain unanswered. My doors and windows were even replaced during a major rain storm! Our neighbor experienced similar ongoing issues with them as well. There's more, but my head aches again and I have furniture and furnishings to move yet again followed by body aches. They don't deserve the single star that I had to give! read more

I needed a window replaced. It was an old window I never thought would be so easy! I just got the number off the window they came a couple weeks later he replaced in 20 minutes or less beautiful great experience read more

Milgard will never receive business from me again. They have little quality control, customer service and they are pricey for what you get. Pay more for Pella or Anderson and get a better product. read more

No LOYALTY whatsoever. After years of doing business and always paying on time, we were booted from our Milgard account because they simply were not in demand last year. Not to mention getting a quote from them directly takes days so if their program doesn't work you can't quote it. I imagine their customer service is similar. Buy a different window, read more

Milgard has the worst customer service of anyone. First of all when you call they keep you on hold forever, subsequently you make an appointment for a service repair and you are given a 2 hour window in which they will be there to make the necessary warranty repair. Well its been 3 hours and I am still waiting read more

Awful product quality, awful service. The doors and windows and hard to open, close, parts come off , change sizes wildly with weather changes. Steer clear if you can. Service guys are rude, and their main aim is to try and push the blame on someone else. read more

I shot a quick video. You can find it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La-Q6juIHzk&feature=youtu.be I am so incensed at this company that I am currently planning a video series with a more comprehensive treatment of what they sent to me--this one was just a quick walk through with random windows and not a detailed treatment. Also, if you have had a problem with Milgard Windows please message me. I'm going to start collecting names and stories and plan set up a better forum for helping protect others from the insanity of a vendor who doesn't stand behind their expensive products. If anyone whats to chip in a little, I will probably purchase some facebook advertising for anyone searching for these products as well. The legal stuff will have to wait a few months which I got through their warranty process, but given their response time, and given my experience with other companies like this, they likely don't take you seriously until you file suit. Please note, I am a lawyer. I've never done anything like this in my life, but I feel it is my responsibility to protect other people from this company. read more

I have always used Milgard and steered customers to use their products on all the homes I built and projects I was involved with going back to 1988 as their service and quality was superior to any other in their price range. In pricing windows for my own house rennovation was surprised Milgard wanted double the cost over Jeld Wen for each window to add an additional grid to a "valance" style grid pattern on a single hung. I bought 4 Jeld Wen's to replace existing windows before I started the addition and they leaked and fogged up. ( No, It was not an installation issue) I elected to go with Milgard for the remainder project--18k in windows-- and forego the look of a 3 lite valance. Not happy with the compromise but dollars vs esthetics won. During course of installation one window got broken and I called supplier to order a replacement frame and window. After 2 months I noticed another window had cracked--this one definitely not operator error--and a call was made to local supplier who came out and determined it was a factory issue. He called to check on earlier order for replacement and to advise of cracked pane discovery and was told they had no record of previous order. All the required info was provided once again and here I am, six months later with nothing from Milgard. My salesman states Milgard customer service is non-existent and quality control is deficient. I am done referring Milgard and will continue to steer others away from using their product. read more

We recently had the windows installed throughout our house and are extremely pleased with them. When we noticed problems with the windows and called, we received prompt, courteous, helpful service and were scheduled to have the problems rectified within a reasonable amount of time. The technicians who arrived to do the repairs were neat, courteous, professional. We have had a very good experience dealing with Milgard to date and are happy with the look and performance of the many windows we had installed read more

Milgard does not guarantee their windows for life. They guarantee their windows for the time in which you own the window. Once a new buyer buys the property, the lifetime warranty is null and void. Basically they only care for the person who gave paid them...not the person who owns the window. Very poor customer service. read more

I would NOT recommend ever using Milgard products. Worst repair service I've ever seen. I replaced all windows and doors during a house remodel in 2009 with Milgard's top of the line lifetime guarantee fiberglass products. Began having problems with hardware on one door after about 5 years of use. It took nearly 2 years to get it repaired. The door had to be replaced because of a change in their hardware supplier and the new hardware is nor compatible. I eventually wound up having to call the corporate office to get any action during that ordeal. Don't bother calling Temecula. You won't get any action from their management. I'm now having a problem with another door. The service tech came out around July 10 2017 to check the door and found out that the door will also need replacing. Ordered door and was told it will be delivered and installed 8/16/17. Called Temecula this morning regarding the time and was told that the that order was canceled by someone. WTF! I'm not waiting 2 years for replacement again. I called Milgard's corporate office this morning and left a message for Pat Olson to call me back. Hopefully I get a response sooner than later. * Door hardware breaks after 5 years of use with no repair option available outside of replacing the door and frame. * Windows have a poor fit and don't seal properly. Could of got a better product from China. Their technicians are pleasant enough, however the management and products are horrible. Update: Before you buy Milgard products check out the Consumer Affairs website: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/milgard.html Still waiting for a call back from Milgard! They did send a robo response. No corporate ethics! read more

Several years ago (~5) we remodeled our house in San Diego, and had MIlgard aluminum windows installed throughout the house. After 5 seasons, we still love the windows and how they operate.The frame of the window is very narrow and it lets the maximum of light into the room. It looks seek, and we have slider window, so they are easy to open and shut. Now (2017), we recently decided that we needed to have a new window replaced in our bathroom, in our house in San Carlos.The window is from the 50s and is an aluminum,single panned, casement window frame with a hand crank for opening and closing. We thought we would love to put in aluminum framed, sliding, windows in this house as well, just like we did in our former house in San Diego. One single window, double panned, should be a snap yes? Well, this project has turned out to be a nightmare of a project. NO major window dealers in the Northern California area, sell or even have display models of the Milgard aluminum windows. We thought this was rather odd? It a great window and a great product. It turns out after I spent several weeks of looking and hunting down the windows. Our contractor said the aluminum windows are illegal in Northern California, This turned out to be partially true, The State instituted a new law ( its California after all, gotta have a law for every thing called Title 24 that makes it a requirement that: You have to have your house inspected and an 'energy survey)' by an engineer, to see if they feel your house will accept an aluminum window, ( not cheap ~ $300 to $500 for the inspection). YOu then have to take this inspection report to your City Building department, and they review it. and then they decide if your house is worthy of an aluminum window, If they dont like your house, then you have to buy either fiber glass , vinyl or wood windows, NO exceptions. Now, I have had years of experience with aluminum windows and short of a major civil disturbance that breaks the glass in your windows, the frames will last and perform FOREVER, The other materials? Well, I think you know what Im thinking? OK so, all I want to do is replace one SINGLE WINDOW, an energy inefficient window that is 60 years old, with a new thermally insulated one. The window itself costs $~300, but with the inspection it adds another $300-$500, and the city building department may decide that I need to have a window made of inferior material instead of my aluminum frame. I could be out a lot of money ( to the inspection and then the review by the city) , and most importantly a lot of time to get a simple job done. So, why doesn't MIlgard, which has some of the manufacturing done in California , make an energy compliant window?? I have called and emailed them, but get No response. Welcome to California, home of many useless and stupid laws that lack common sense, We have decided to just forget this whole project and leave the 60 year old window in place, and continue to contribute our share to global warming with energy wasted, Over all, it will be cheaper than trying to do a good deed. t read more

I went through Home Depot and utilize their home improvement loan at 7% interest to buy my Milgard Windows & Doors one of my windows came in broke three came in damaged after the installation I had to have Milgard Tech come out here to get things set up correctly. However I still have do a lot of touch up with the touch up paint that Milgard sent me. It is very noticeable on the Finish once I put it on and basically my windows look horrible I have 9 more units to do and I don't believe I'll be using milgard Unfortunately they didn't live up to their expectations and I will not shop at Home Depot again I was asked for a star rating Milgard doesn't deserve one read more

We had purchased ALL new Milgard windows in our home in 2010 through the excellent company Andy's Glass- which I also highly recomend...We had a sliding door and an eliptical window on the same side of the house- that take super heavy sun exposure to the next level....I started to notice after the last window cleaning service, that these 2 of 36 new windows started to turn just a bit hazy....I called Milgard and mentioned this to them...I had the best customer service...they simply ordered the two windows over the phone while looking up my records-- and sent the contacters out to replace them! They set a date-- arrived precisely on time and Jose and Eric were incredibly professional and fast....they really knew what they were doing...I loved how they had the slip cover rubber for their shoes, they were really careful with these big ladders- and cleaned up so well after the re-install- I didnt have to lift a finger....we are very pleased and can confidently recommend the in-home service of Milgard as well as their customer loyalty and how they back up their window products 8 years later! read more

We have had Milgard windows in our home for almost 10 years. They still slide smoothly and clean up wonderfully. One time, a slider started getting moisture inside. I call Milgard & they came to my home and replaced the pane within 2 weeks! Great products!! read more

My nearly 10 year old window suddenly burst. Milgard asked a few questions and arranged to have their repair man Rudy come to our house. In less than 30 minutes he replaced the broken window. I couldn't be happier. read more

I had owned my Milgard replacement windows 15 years when the little clips that held The grids broke. (Window pane look) Milgard came out and replaced all of my windows, no problems at all read more

To begin, I have been happy with the quality of our windows. I gave Milgard one star for service. Twelve years ago we bought replacement windows. One year ago I started seeing haze on four windows. We called to find that they are still under warranty. After our first two month wait for replacement glass, the driver came while my wife was picking up our kids. She had called dispatch to say she would be back at 2:00 but the driver came and left by 1:55. He blamed us for not being home!! Turns out he did not have all the glass anyway. Two months later they came with only two of the four Windows. Two weeks later they show up with the right glass but broke one of two getting it in. I tried Calling costumer service, but they have not called back yet. Lifetime warranty means having to put up with this company for a lifetime. OM Gosh, "just shOOt me"!! read more

Our windows were installed nearly 5 months ago and there are some significant issues. One pane is not square and needs replaced, most screens do not fit (literally cannot get them out), one door handle is severely scratched. All solvable problems, but here is the rub: when our contractor tried to schedule the Milguard person to come out to fix (literally a dozen times over a four month period), their reply is "we are too far out with repairs to schedule any more service calls". Which means we will NEVER GET ON THEIR SCHEDULE! And our problems will never be fixed. Makes absolutely no sense - why wouldn't you simply extend your scheduling a few more months? Also sends the clear message that there are such a vast number of problems with their windows that they are completely overwhelmed. Makes any warranty worthless. UPDATE: after leaving this review, we've been contacted by Milgard and a service call was made today. They are ordering new screens and committed to repairing all the issues! Said it may take up to six weeks to get the new screens ( all custom sizes), but this is very encouraging. The windows themselves are terrific, if the problems are taken care of this review will go to 5 star. Appears the local sales rep was dropping the ball, but the company is all over it now. read more

I unfortunately replaced all the windows in my house with milgard replacement windows in the early 2000's. Over the years Milgard has come out multiple times to replace windows that went bad - spots, mold between the double paned glass, etc. Apparently due to the low e seal wearing out or something. I was thankful for the lifetime warranty and they always just came out and handled it. But something seems to have changed. I called in a problem on two windows in November. Instead of sending someone out to replace within a few weeks as usual, instead they sent someone out to confirm in December. Then they scheduled to replace in February. I had a call to confirm the appointment to replace the windows for 2/2, but no one showed up. When I called that day, they said they didn't have the glass. Then someone else called and said that was a mistake, they did have the glass and would be out the next morning. But the next day they didn't show again. I called and was told there was no appointment and there was no glass. I went on their facebook page and messaged them and I was told that I wasn't the original owner so nothing would be covered anyway. What? I bought the place years before I purchased your windows. Some guy just trying to make me go away. I left my home and an hour later had a call saying there was a mistake and they'd be there in an hour. Nope can't, helping my Mom move today. We schedule her move for AFTER the repair. Moving company was loading the van, I couldn't stop that. So then they called again to schedule for a 3rd day. Apologized all over the place and said they'd be there 1st thing in the morning. 8am sharp. Well, it's 9am. They're not here and no one is answering at Milgard. I'm ready to have someone else repair and send the bill to them. In the 4 months it's taken since my initial call to them, I've added on a 400sq ft den and 14 more milgard windows. I'm thinking now that choosing this brand was a giant mistake and I should have chosen a better brand that's not known to fail every few years and that has dependable customer service. read more

The reason that I gave this company a two star rating is that I had a horrible experience trying to get a defective window replaced. After I measured the window and took photographs they took several months to schedule an appointment. Without all the gory details, they scheduled six different appointments with me that they either failed to show for or came without the replacement window. Eventually the window that I needed replacing did get replaced. To be fair, they were more professional on an a window that failed earlier and except for the failures the windows seem to be generally good quality. But if you need help with replacing one just hire a local. It will be cheaper in the long run. read more

We replaced 24 windows and 2 sliding doors with Milgard Essence series in July 2016. Though we've had no issues with window performance specifically, we've experienced several issues from day 1 that earns Milgard 2 stars...here they are: 1) Awning windows arrived missing hardware related to the crank handles. (Beware, if you buy the oil rubbed bronze finish, you'll find it's actually a bronze colored plastic that covers the actual metal hardware. In this case, several windows were missing a highly visible component of the covering such that the white metal inside is visible...not a great look for upscale windows.) Since installation, we've had 5 service visits, and each time they fail to provide the missing pieces! Still waiting for resolution.) 2) We ordered external simulated divided lights or grids...which are supposed to appear like real "divided lights". From day 1, the adhesive that secures the grids to the glass was failing, such that the grids became partially detached from the glass, and in turn both bowed off the glass and collected dust and debris between the glass and the separated adhesive. Not a great look. Over the course of 5 service calls, they've attempted to resolve the issue by replacing the adhesive, but the issue persists. During a recent dialog with the Sacramento service manager, I was told "their engineers were not aware of the issue" and that they could provide me with a roll of the adhesive tape so that I might fix it myself as needed! However, during our last service call, the field rep stated that Milgard used to use a different, higher quality adhesive that performed much better. (Thus I am still waiting for a resolution, 15 months post install!) 2b) Be advised that Milgard's simulated divided lights contain a spacer inside the sealed panes of glass. It's purpose is to provide an appearance of a solid grid, from interior to exterior...to "simulate" a real divided light. However, the spacer used is not wide/thick enough to create the illusion, unless you are looking straight on, such that looking from an angle one can see not only a gap between the grid and the spacer, but the black adhesive tape used to connect the grid to the glass. In my opinion, other brands seem to create a better illusion. 3) During my last service call, I was informed that one of my patio doors was installed out of plumb. I responded that my certified Milgard dealer and installer had provided a lifetime warranty on their installation, only to hear that such dealer had since gone out of business! Hmmm. So much for the worth of a Milgard "certification". I know, not really Milgard's issue, but they did certify the dealer and you can't buy Milgard windows direct. (Stick with the large home improvement stores for purchase and installation.) 4) Expect a 3-6 month wait time for service calls...and that they'll often show up to perform the job without the proper materials or supplies, often not having checked they even have them in their truck! Bizarre. I could go on, but this review is too lengthy already. Bottom line, it would seem that Milgard's long standing reputation for quality and outstanding service is no longer merited. As I have come to learn, no window company is perfect...but some resolve issues better and faster than others, and provide more quality and design sense for the same price from the start. Good luck! Cam read more

We have retro fitted Milgard windows in our 1940s home and used them for a large addition. The windows range in age from 15 to 20 years old. Recently one of the large sliding windows couldn't be opened We called Milgard and arranged for them to repair the window The appointment took over a month and the date was changed once. But in the end Clint came from Milgard and fixed the window in under 10 minutes. He replaced the closing mechanism, put in all new wheels and sprayed with silicone. The window is back to it's original easy function. The wait for Milgard was worth it! And it was all covered under their lifetime warranty read more

Great company with a great product. I am a general contractor and I have used both their vinyl and aluminum framed windows and doors for many projects. Recently I had an issue with my own home where the new aluminum window had a scratch in between the two panes of glass. I had registered my windows and submitted a warranty claim to see if they could help me out. After a few weeks they got back to me and scheduled a repair date to resolve my issue. Their workers were on time, quick and courteous. Happy with their product and happy with their ability to stand behind their product. read more

So much for a lifetime warranty. Nope. If you sell, the warranty does not extend to the new owner. Put another way, if you buy, your windows are not under warranty. Good luck and BOOO! read more

Amazing! My townhome was built in 2001. I just recently realized condensation in one window - they are all double paned. I called Milgard and all they needed was the window model number. I did have to schedule about 3 weeks out but no big deal. Got an email confirmation the day before my appointment. Nick called that day and was running early, wondered if he could come by early. No problem! Nick replaced the window in less than 30 minutes. Lifetime warranty, so no paperwork, no cost. Nick is a MASTER of his craft! Can't thank Milgard enough! Excellent product, excellent work! read more

If I could give Milguard zero stars I would. Do business with any company BUT them. They have had one year to replace a failed pane of glass. We have taken multiple days off work and they continue to cancel. After one year they have still not fixed it. In lost wages we could have bought a brand new slider and installed it. STAY AWAY FROM THIS COMPANY. read more

The tech arrived within the appointment window and he had the repair completed within 15 minutes! Very fast and excellent service! I did ask him to look at another window and he said that the discoloration was from moisture between those panes. So now I'll have to make another appt to get that window repaired too but that technician was very thorough, honest, and was very knowledgeable! Thank you!!! read more

Our milgard window cracked; I completed the online form with photos and serial numbers and never received any correspondence to repair. Tired again; nothing. Left a request via social media; received a terse response this was past my warranty and nothing they could do. Went to the home improvement store with all my receipts to see if they could help - I had originally purchased the glass breakage warranty - and the manager was able to set up the replacement for a few months later. Dell from Milgard came out and was the nicest person ever!! Had to reorder as the window was the wrong size and came back a few weeks later. Replaced it in minutes. Dell was the only reason I had a great experience! He receives a 5-star rating. Milgard customer service, however, receives a 1-star. I'm happy to finally have the window replaced but Milgard could take a page or two from Dell W. in what customer service is really about. read more

Worst ever. Had 12 windows and a slider installed in 2007. The windows have had to be serviced at least every 2 years for what were told was condensation between the panes. The service gentleman said he would have to shoot some kind of gas between the panes, but the customer service rep said its faulty seals due to time. The windows were serviced 2 years ago, your seals fail in 2 years?. . . so according to Milguard- it could be a gas issue, could be weather conditions, could be faulty seals, could be deterioration. . . Regardless we should not have to worry about windows every 2 years. Surely in the past 10 years you have had some advancement in fixing issues with the windows? oh you haven't? great. Same old answer of submit a service request and someone hopefully will get back to you. Also thank you Milguard for the consultation person that left us a number that is no longer in service. . . Classy. read more

This has to be the worst manufacturer of windows in California. I will scream as loud as I can to whomever will listen to never buy a product from this company. They've had to replace my order 3 times and we just got the most recent replacement and the quality is terrible again and now we need to replace more parts of the order. Best part is, Milgard delivers a low quality product and then you get to wait weeks for a replacement and they honestly don't care. they've actually admitted they know their service is bad and they've even told me they know they send out a sub-par product but most people won't deal with the return and just accept it. The CEO should be terminated for allowing a culture of incompetence to exist. Do not even consider this company! I'm so disappointed that i did not due any due diligence before buying windows from this company. Consider yourself lucky if you are reading this! read more

Our windows were installed in 2006, and since then we have had 3 bathroom windows break all on their own. I live in San Diego, so weather is not a factor. These windows were all glue chip glass, and Milgard did replace the first two that broke, but they refuse to replace this last one. It is a stationary window, and therefore, could not have suffered any damage from sliding it open and closed. There is obviously something wrong with this type of glass, and it should be replaced by the manufacturer. Our windows were installed before their lifetime guarantee was put in place, so they simply refuse to help us at this time. I wonder how many other windows will break that I will have to replace myself. I would NOT recommend this manufacturer. read more

Had all the windows in my home replaced. Approx. $11,000 job. All the workers were great. Unfortunately I had scratches on my sliding door, large picture window and several other windows when they were installed. Milgard had no problem coming out to replace the windows but only on their terms. Meaning the first two times was 6 weeks out. The last time I requested a Friday so I wouldn't have to take off from work. I was told they don't come to my area on that day. So it's OK for me to take off from work to accommodate them (already have taken off twice for replacement windows that were installed scratched), but Milgard doesn't feel it's their responsibility to accommodate their customers when it is their quality of work that is repeatedly faulty. Now seven months after the initial install, I am still waiting for my last window. read more

The truth about Milgard's "guarantee" is that they are incompetent. One of our double-pane windows now has moisture between the panes so the window looks perpetually fogged up. We had a technician come to replace that window and do repairs to window crank handles that had failed. He didn't bring the window with him because of a miscommunication in their Simi Valley office. So, he measured the window and said someone would come back, bring the window, and install it. Months went by and they finally scheduled to bring the window and install it on April 3. On April 3 the technician (a different one) arrived with the window. The window he is replacing is 21" x 31". The window he brought was 91" x 31", so the first technician either wrote it down wrong, or someone on the other end misread what he wrote. Now they are telling me that they can't come back with the correct window and install it until May 1 at the earliest. In the meantime, I've removed everything from the surrounding wall and all of the furniture in that area, so my dining room is all torn up. We will have to put everything back for an upcoming event, then take everything down again. Milgard may "guarantee" that they will replace windows that fail, but they will put you through a lot of hassle, make ridiculous mistakes, and have no motivation to get it right, or make it right promptly when they get it wrong. read more