Bought apricot/lemon batard amd sour cherry walnuts. They are delicious in taste! I had them fresh and toasted then put cream cheese for breakfast. You must try them. Small bakery tucked away from China town and north beach Little Italy! read more

I've had this bookmarked for a while and was in the neighborhood, so we stopped by to take a look. The owner, Tony Gemignani of Tony's pizza opened this small, grab 'n go, quaint bakery that sells very good bread, bagels, and baked goods! I heard that sometimes they sell out and close the shop early, but thankfully they still had bagels and gold standard baguettes ($6) left. We got there around 1:30 on a Friday afternoon. Service was friendly and welcoming. There were only a few people in line, also there to pick up baguettes. Glad we were able to snag one before they were gone! I also got an everything bagel and a cinnamon raisin bagel ($2.95/each). The bagels were a bit pricey for the size. Inside, you'll see sheet pans of baked goods being made fresh! I think all the sweet pastry was gone by the time we got there. Sadly, we didn't see any biscottis, spumoni or rainbow cookies. When we got home, we sliced up half of the baguette and toasted in the oven. It had a nice sourdough flavor (not too sour). Best eaten that day! After a few days, it can get hard. But if you can't finish it all, it makes great croutons for salad! That's what we did. It was crispy and very yummy! The bagels were also good and had a nice chew. Though the size of the bagel isn't quite like the ones you'd see in New York. But the texture was close! Hope to come back to try their sweet pastries, if I could just get there before they sell out! read more

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Pretty good bagel spot, tried the lox bagel. Not much room inside to sit down so I would anticipate a grab and go situation. I would come back to try some actual breads and other baked goods as I suspect that may be where they shine more. It was cool to see them prep the dough inside! read more

Toscano Brothers - Lox - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

Came for some bagels while we waited for rhe 49er shuttle to take us to the game. And OMG!!! The bagels we the ABSOLUTE best I've ever had. They beat all bagels places in SF for me. I mean of course it's the best it owned by Tony G. I will most definitely be coming back to order some bagels to take home. read more

Toscano Brothers - Onion Bagel Scallion Cream Cheese Americano - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

Good bagels, baguettes and other breads, friendly service, vintage olde-fashioned early 1900s decor. This spot is owned by famous Pizzalolo Tony Gemniani. The bagel flavors on hand included: poppyseed, plain, sesame, onion, and an asiago & japaleno bagel. They aren't the mega-sized bagels you see at a local blue-logo megabagel chain, but just a little smaller and very comparable in taste and texture to them. They satisfy the need. Plain cream cheese on your bagel is $1 extra. All cheeses are available in little to-go condiment cups as well. Special flavors such as strawberry or scallion cream cheese are $1.50. They'll slice and toast your bagel at no extra charge. Lots of little tables outside on the sidewalk and parklet to enjoy your meal. Not a bad place for a bagel or to pick up your daily baguette! read more

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Best darn Sandwich in the city !!!! And I am that Sandwich snob. They were closing for a half hour when we arrived, though the gentleman working allowed us to purchase our sandwiches and scones before closing the gate. The sandwich is reminiscent of the quality of deli meats and baguettes I found in Paris. This is now my go to and favorite sandwich shop. The baguette was one of the best!!!! read more

I went there on a Sunday afternoon and found out they do a buy one get one free on their breads. The cashier was super nice and helped us pack the sourdough baguette that I bought. The baguette was very fresh and good quality. Definitely will go back there when I'm in the neighborhood. They are next to the Chinatown police station read more

I stopped by because I was looking for a good and trusty bagel place in the city. This place is affiliated with Tony's Pizza, so I assumed the dough is incredible. We got the asiago and jalapeno bagel, as well as a rosemary piattina. The bagel was just okay. Nothing spectacular to report, but it wasn't horrible. The piattina was difficult to eat. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but it was definitely not something I would return for. The ambiance in here is very cute! I like the open kitchen type concept. The service was pretty quick and friendly. read more

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When I ate the salted bagel, I now understand why New Yorkers behave like that towards their bagels. You will too when you eat these. So soft and crusty (complimentary) read more

Debuted at the end of the pandemic in response to an ethnic slur Dago Bagel from Tony Gemignani is one of 3 concepts inhabiting 728 Vallejo Street, and from Thursday to Sunday beginning at 8:00am guests are welcome to enjoy everything from true New York Style Bagels to house-made loaves and traditional Italian Pastries made with skill and love. Liberally using Malt and a Cuppone Panettone deck oven imported from Italy, plus stone-ground Flour made on-site, visitors attention is next drawn to Toscano Brothers including "Gold Standard" Baguettes and Organic Sourdough Ace Pagnotta incorporating Spelt, Rosemary and Olives into a 40+ year old Sourdough starter. Trending sweet from here, a Sour Cherry and Chocolate Batard souring local produce and TCHO Chocolate, Tony's "Piattina" cuts a wide swath of textures and flavors before Antonio's Italians Pastries rounds things out with Rainbow Cookies and delectable Lemon Ricotta Cake plus creamy Budino hidden alongside Prosciutto, Salami and Mortadella in the cold case. read more

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When I read the article that famous Tony's pizza opened a bakery. I love a good bagel with cream cheese. I had to stop by to try an everything bagel with vanilla latte. Best almond vanilla latte ever. Perfectly roasted espresso with tad of sweetness. The bagel was warmed and soft Crispy top with fluffy inside with smear of scallion cream cheese. Perfect combo. Must stop if you are in north beach or Chinatown area. Parking garage on both side of the street. There is park let to sit in. Friendly and helpful staff. You can buy a small or large cream cheese container. read more

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Delicious Bagels! I am former New Yorker who has the nasty habit of complaining and putting down the quality and authenticity of every bagel I try here in the Bay Area! My favorite phrase is, "This is not a real bagel!!" To be fair sometimes I am being a snub, but if you you have ever tried a true NY bagel, you will probably agree with me. Today a friend of mine suggested we give Toscano Brothers bakery a visit, because he claimed they have the best bagel in town! I thought to myself, "Oh brother, how am I going to control my response after the first bite and do not offend him?!" Well, to my relief and pleasant surprise, I did not have to worry about that at all! We decided to share a bagel and just so that I could try one. Nothing special on it, just cream cheese! I took a my first bite and I was sold. It was the best bagel I have tried in San Francisco! I had a belly full of brunch which we had earlier, so I could not possibly try any other items and I did not want to buy something and let it sit and get stale. For that reason, I will be going back to Toscano Brothers soon to have another bagel and perhaps try a couple of other items! read more

Toscano Brothers - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

When I first visited a little after their opening, it was a pretty specialized offering with just bagels and baguettes. Can't say either really blew me away. But I revisited before writing this review, after they added some sweets, and went away quite impressed with how far they've come. Detroit Bagel: This was pretty cool, never seem anything like it before. It's like they took a plain cooked bagel then put it in a little square pan with tons of cheese and baked on a bottom of cheese. I guess it's Detroit in the spirit of Detroit pizzas that are also encrusted with cheese. Except the cheese on the bottom of this bagel didn't seem browned at all. Just like melted and cooled. Might be better if they crisped it a bit. Prosciutto Sandwich: Seemed like they wanted to entice people to buy a baguette, so they put a very thin layer of cheese and very thin layer of prosciutto in the middle. It wasn't terrible sandwich-like, more like bread with a little extra stuff. They could definitely use more meat and cheese. And baguette was just alright. Kinda chewy and not that crusty; I prefer Acme's baguettes more. Onion Bagel w/ Cream Cheese, Lox, Onions, Tomatoes, Cucumbers, Capers: Came as a to-go kit, which at first I was a little annoyed that I had to assemble it myself at home, but then I realized the portion was much larger than when bagel shops make it for you. Like maybe 1.5x the salmon and cream cheese, so it's worth the manual exertion. The bagel was a bit smaller than other bagels, but had a good chewy exterior and interior. I really liked the cream cheese since it was so light and fluffy. The rest of the toppings were nice. Though the tomatoes could have a been a bit more heirloom, given how close they are to the farmers market. And maybe some fresh dill would have been nice? Garlic Sesame Flatbread: This was really unique, I can't say I've had anything like this before. It was like a gigantic cracker, but a little chewy in the middle. About the size of a large pizza, but really thin. It seemed to be made of a bunch of thin strands of dough that bake up to be like thin crunchy breadsticks next to each other. And there's some sweet glaze on top, maybe honey, which makes it a little sticky. Really cool. Rainbow Cookie: I'm kinda shocked that more places in North Beach don't make this delicious sweet. Theirs tasted so fresh with each cakey layer being fluffy with a nice almond taste. The raspberry layers in between were a tad too skimpy for my tastes, but the cookie overall was just so delicious I let that pass. Shortbread: A very fancy shortbread with a grid pattern of green and pink squares. Kinda tasted nutty (green) and fruity (pink), so was much more interesting than a normal shortbread. Very buttery on the white/yellow parts. Sfogliatella: Looked like a chocolate croissant, but had an amazing crunchy shell. And the filling was much denser than a chocolate croissant, with huge amounts of their chocolate hazelnut mixture. Truly a great pairing with morning coffee. read more

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I'll admit, my database for bagel information isn't vast. But I know something tasty once I put it in my mouth. I've had the cheese and Serano bagel twice and I really forgot how spicy it was. Had the scallion cream cheese with it this time and that spread really has got the goods. Smear that guy on whatever and it's going to take it up a couple notches. But it's perfect for a bagel. I also had this long/round thing sweet/savory thing. They've told me the name of it like 4 times when I've asked and I'm still not even close. It's an Italian word. It's a freakin' sleeper. This spot is also one of Tony Gemignani's places. If Tony sees any of my reviews tell him to call me. I'm Tony's biggest fan and I think we could be really good friends. On the subject of Dago bagel though let's keep this simple. Try not to say the word "Dago." And if you like bagels go to this place. It's legit. They also got some nice other sweet treats. Stamp of approval. Holla at me Tony. (4.5 Stars) read more

Toscano Brothers - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

Got a delicious sandwich with cheese and prosciutto. It was Italian perfection! It didn't have any extra things, it just let the simple ingredients speak for themselves. Give me a great loaf of bread, some meat and cheese, and I'm a happy man! read more

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Dago Bagels were everywhere on mass media recently, and Tony himself was interviewed to explain why his bagel shop was so named. After watching the interview I wanted to give his bagels a try. I'm not in the North Beach area much so this morning I made a conscious effort to swing by as hubby had an appointment in SOMA later in the morning. Detour!! Being Sunday morning I thought traffic be light and parking be plenty. Nope. Many parking spaces have been converted into parklets. As I drove by the bakery I noticed a front door parking space with the curb painted red. Reserved for SFPD as the North Beach police station is only a few doors up. What the heck. I'm feeling confident. I'll just be a couple of minutes. Well, due to COVID 19, only 2 customers inside at a time. And the customers were very talkative with Tony. But I'm next. I'm still feeling confident as hubby is riding shotgun. I noticed a patrol car driving by towards the station, but I'm fine. The 2 ladies leave. Now it's my turn. I asked which bagels were the top sellers. Tony & staff said the everything bagel. O.k. two of those please, and Tony & staff said the salted one also popular. O.k. one of those too. And the chocolate chip sour cherry sourdough loaf. O.k. $21 later. We brought our purchase home later and had the bagels plain. No butter, no cream cheese, no lox. Nothing. The bagels were soft and chewy. Nice texture. The chocolate chip sour cherry sourdough bread was very soft. Sweet, salty, and sour tasting. I'm glad I had a chance to try the bagels and the bread. Until my next detour. read more

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Wow! The very best bread I have had in a long time. The olive round and the baguette, both amazing. Excited to go back and try their sandwiches and more. Their cannoli sounds interesting. read more

Amazing wood fired pizza dough. Amazing service. Really cool store with an interesting ambience.

Wonderful outdoor seating! We shared a piattina. Never had anything like it before but we loved it! Slightly sweet, both chewy and crispy. The cappuccino tasted the same as we had in Italy. Waaaay better than Starbucks! Order at the counter. Very nice staff. read more

We stopped by on our way to check out China Town because my son loves bagels and it was across the street. My son compares all bagels to NY bagels and he gave this a 7 out of 10. I thought the storefront was really cute, and the cashier was friendly. read more

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Hallelujah was my first word when I reached the order counter. I've made several walk-bys but never got to try their sandwiches as they were always sold out. On a pre-holiday Friday morning, I walked in and exclaimed "Hallelujah!" upon seeing this (https://www.yelp.com/user_local_photos?select=7BSOiz-BSkRLwoyZNM4NlQ&userid=saJuyv784apZzH--psHZ3Q). After learning their three menu choices, I decided to try two of them. I brought them to the office and wanted to try them while fresh while still being able to fit through the door so I cut each in half. I tried the prosciutto sandwich (https://www.yelp.com/user_local_photos?select=0Uu2uc-Od0LdF5_NIhNfhQ&userid=saJuyv784apZzH--psHZ3Q) and a puzzled expression hit my face; I was mixed in this first bite, used to eating fully loaded sandwiches with lettuce, tomatoes, onions, etc. This was two sides of a baguette like bread with an olive oil spread, meat, and cheese; and it grew on me. With each bite, I appreciated the funk of the prosciutto and the fragrant flavor from the cheese, each being so unique. I was satisfied so I tried the smaller half of my salami sandwich (https://www.yelp.com/user_local_photos?select=B16Nq94QgruKnHbMPJ4p2A&userid=saJuyv784apZzH--psHZ3Q) next; I enjoyed this as much as the prosciutto with the meat flavor being the only difference. Again, it was not a supermarket grade salami and I certainly tasted it. The other halves of the sandwiches became my breakfasts for the next two days. I wrapped them tightly in plastic wrap and replaced them in their wrapping; do keep them in a cool dry place and definitely refrigerate if your kitchen is humid. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to try these and, though tempted by the 3rd meat choice mortadella, I'll likely stick with these two if the stars align again. read more

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I love Tony's Pizza Napoletana and have had some good meals at Capo's, and definitely had to give Tony Gemignani's new bakery a try! At Toscano Brothers, they have a stone mill to make their own flour, as well as a steam injected Cuppone brick oven from Italy. They also use a 40 year old sourdough starter made from organic Zinfandel grapes from Robert Pepi vineyards in Napa! You can purchase fresh dough, Italian/French bread pizza, Roman potato flat breads, artisan coffee, and fresh pasta, among other items. They also sell bagels, again made by Tony G., under the Dago Bagels name. I was worried about long lines, but luckily, it wasn't busy yet when I stopped by around their opening time of 8am on a Friday. Some items are labeled with prices and some are not, which made it difficult to decide on the spot what to order. I ended up trying their Everything Bagel ($2.75), Rainbow Cookie ($3), and Spumoni Cookie ($1.25) [https://www.yelp.com/user_local_photos?select=YahbqNgW20j77vVc0qU-NQ&userid=76vIFZcC7owykCBjMfGVXg]. The spumoni cookie was actually my favorite out of all the items- I loved the thin but sturdy and buttery cookie, and the subtle flavors from the cherry and pistachio (although I thought the cherry tasted a bit more like raspberry). The rainbow cookie was unique, and I liked the marzipan flavor and chewy texture, but didn't think the chocolate on top worked with the cookie. The bagel was solid, and I liked their everything topping and how chewy the bagel was, but wished it was a bit more soft/fluffy. It didn't quite have that perfect consistency of an NY bagel. Props to Tony G. for keeping prices reasonable- even their smoked salmon topping for the bagel was only an additional $6.80. A lot of bagel spots are charging $15+ for a lox bagel these days! I regret not purchasing their breads, since they are known for their Sour Cherry & Chocolate Batard w/Maldon Salt, and Gold Standard Baguette. I'll be back to give those a try along with more bagels and their sfogliatella! Homemade cream cheeses are also available to go with their bagels. I didn't see indoor or outdoor seating areas, but all staff were wearing masks and hand sanitizer was available. Parking will be the most difficult part about coming here since there were no spots available in the morning that weren't tow away spots/red meters. read more

Toscano Brothers - Everything Bagel ($2.75)- 4/5 stars, Rainbow Cookie ($3)- 3.5/5 stars, Spumoni Cookie ($1.25)- 4/5 stars - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

Toscano Brothers is a delightful little bakery! I've stopped by several times in the past year. The last few times, I ordered the following: Cinnamon Sugar Bagel w Pumpkin Cream Cheese - great bagel, a perfect amount of spiced sweetness. I enjoyed the seasonal cream cheese too, not too sweet at all. Serrano Asiago Bagel w/ Calabrian Honey Cream Cheese - Definitely spicy, but it's a great bagel. The Calabrian Honey Cream Cheese is great too, almost wish I could taste the honey more, but it's there. Italian Rainbow Cookie - More cake-like than cookie-like, I thought this treat was really delightful both in taste and visually. I ate this way too quickly, would love another one. Spumoni Cookie - A pretty and unique cookie. Though it certainly looks spumoni, I didn't think it really tasted strongly of spumoni. Looking forward to my next visit, excited to try more items! read more

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I am glad that I decided to step in line at this wonderful breakfast/brunch/lunch spot in North Beach (a little close to Chinatown in SF)! The signage attracted me to Toscano Brothers and the food options in the window made me stay. Inline, I saw a food item that I thought I would never see on this side of the US of A. A "Detroit" style square slice of pizza that was thiccc and delicious looking. It was love at first sight and it was one of many items I decided to order at Toscano (left with a bag of bagels ). At the register, I was greeted by the most welcoming cashier who spoke with no hint of tiredness in her voice despite the busy early morning rush at the shop. She was hospitable and even went above & beyond to explain her coffee (and future tea) situation to me as I attempted to order a warm beverage to start my day. I shared that I recently moved to the Bay Area and she shared back that she went through the same experience (along with being a fellow commuter). I also got additional advice that Thursday is a good day to simulate an actual normal commute into the city! All of this conversation happened organically and she didn't even show concern about the line behind me. Thank you so much cashier and Toscano Brothers for being the highlight of my morning on that wonderful Sunday in the City! And yes, the baked goods were super good! read more

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the rainbow cookie is delicious perfection - I wish I had bought two. now I know better to bring home Detroit bagels, baguette, and more Rainbow cookies. read more

Toscano Brothers - rainbow cookie perfection - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

I'm certainly no expert on bagels. However, when I eat these bagels, I can tell that they are legit. They are certainly far better than your average bagel. Even after they've been sitting in the bag for a while, they were just perfect after a little bit of time in the oven and a slight butter spread. Yeah. That's really all I have to say. read more

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What a delightful bakery in North Beach! Was attracted to the mint green paint job and then in awe of the delicious breads and pastries in the window. Ended up getting a Serrano pepper cheese bagel and a "Detroit style" bagel. Both were delicious. Smaller than I'm used to, but so dense, flavorful and covered in cheese! The woman working the counter was very friendly and offered espresso. Next time! read more

Toscano Brothers - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

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I love Tony's Pizza Napoletana and Capo's and have been to both more times than I can count. I've been wanting to check out Toscano Brothers since they opened and finally went this morning. Luckily there wasn't a line when we went and Tony G was in the house! We got the Italian flatbread, a prosciutto sandwich, and 3 bagels (plain, asiago, onion) - total was $24 + tip. The Dago bagels were ok, but definitely not as good as New York bagels. I would get the flatbread again, but probably not the sandwich. The bread was good - light and crispy outside and soft inside. I'd probably try some of the other breads next time. read more

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I was in the city picking up some focaccia from Liguria and also needed some bread. I looked on yelp for a baker near by and found Toscano Brothers. I bought several baguettes for my moms 95th birthday party. The bread is absolutely delicious the crust is perfect! I returned recently to get focaccia and more bread for another party I was having...once again the bread was awesome! read more

Omg so excited! 2 days from opening! Dying to try the Bagels, Baguettes and Sourdough (my gfs favorite)! It's actually our 1 year anniversary on Saturday, so I'm going to surprise her with the worlds best - "Tony's Anniversary Sourdough!" :) So went to Toscano's Brothers on opening day, and Tony was handing out free samples of his amazing chocolate sourdough with sour cherries and moldon salt. It's another amazing creation from Tony! I've been enjoying the loafs I bought all weekend, with espresso and with red wine. It's a decadent masterpiece! I also tried one of their Bagels, which tasted different from any bagel I have ever had! It's so delicate and dense and soft inside with a chewy exterior. Amazing! Need to go back for more of these. I also tried a baguette; authentic, rustic, light crisp crunch outside with soft and rich bread inside. The bread smells so fresh with a hint of honey sweetness. I could honestly sit and smell this bread all day. Tony's partner was also handing out samples from a beautiful charcuterie platter, which looked like the ones you see on a tv show! What an experience! read more

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I finally made it here for breakfast to grab a bagel and WOW I was really impressed with the quality of the service and the food as well. Great pour of coffee. The outside parklet was a nice touch since the inside is a small bakery. It wasn't too far of a walk either from my hotel either at Hilton Financial District. I was one of their first customers and then they suddenly had a long line about a half hour later so it seems everyone has noticed the goods. I want to try more of their menu items in the future. Everything tastes top-notch and it's what you expect in the Bay Area. Support this local business! read more

Omg!! Finally, Italian cookie cakes (2.75)!! So soft, spongy and bursting with that delicious almond marzipan flavor. I am obsessed with Tony's new bakery. Aside from my excitement over the yummiest 3 layer aka 7 layer Italian cake, the breads I bought a baguette (6), and everything bagel (2.95) and they did not disappoint! The baguette is so perfectly chewy and fresh. The bagel aroma and taste are sensational Not a fan of the Apricot sfogliatelle (4.95), it was bland and tasted stale. Perhaps it's better paired with coffee. Also I felt it was slightly over priced given the size ‍ Can not wait to try more, especially chocolate cherry bread read more

Toscano Brothers - Italian cookie cake - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

Excellent bread and excellent salami sandwich! Their baguette like bread is very soft and fresh, and it holds well even after a couple of days. And I was actually pleasantly surprised how great their sandwich was. Extremely simple but absolutely delicious. I keep bragging about it. Next time I will make sure to have some pepperoncini's handy as I always need a kick with all my sandwiches. read more

I've tried their bagels, olive bread and chocolate loaf. So far - very pleased and will buy again and again! They were still very tasty even a few days later. I love that bagels are small size so they're not too heavy. And loaves are small as well - perfect for one/two person household. Very happy to finally have a bakery in the neighborhood that makes bagels and bread! read more

Toscano Brothers - Chocolate bread - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

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Love me a good crusty, well done, sourdough bread. Any size, any shape will do. The more sour and well done, the better. I tried all 4 breads here - the baguette, the olive, the chocolate & sour cherry, and since it was Sunday, lucked out and also got the Apricot Walnut Bread. Our favorite overall was the regular baguette. Crispy crust and soft airy dough inside. The sweet breads would be good sliced and toasted with butter and honey. Of the sweet, we liked the Sunday only bread, with the apricots, walnuts, and dates. But as far as regular crusty sourdough bread, Tartine, Jane, Josey Baker Bread, and Acme are my favorites. Not a big bagel person but tried 3 anyways, the everything, the seed, and the onion. All were on the small side but fresh and chewy. read more

Toscano Brothers - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

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I miss living in New York City. If you do, too, you should check out the great bagels and great rainbow cookies at Toscano Brothers!

Not sure how I haven't tried this spot but I've been looking for a good bagel spot near me forever and Toscano Brothers did NOT disappoint. I think they run out pretty quickly so I would try to get here on the earlier side. They have a good selection of cream cheese, including sweet and savory. I got the scallion cream cheese with the Asiago bagel and Serrano peppers - everything was toasted perfectly and the cream cheese was so good. I can't remember the exact price but it def didn't break the bank and I will be back! read more

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The staff was very nice and we got an Italian flatbread to share after passing by it in the window. It was very garlicy and oily which I enjoyed. There were crispy parts and there were also chewier parts which have a nice variety. The flatbread itself it huge. read more

Toscano Brothers - Italian flatbread - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

Fresh baked and very good! Definitely a go to for breakfast, lunch & sweets when visiting San Francisco read more

Toscano Brothers - Fresh warm delicious - Bakeries Near Me - San Francisco, California

I'll never support a business that treats a customer the way we just saw. We were sitting outside trying out their bagels and a guy walked inside not knowing that there were a few people outside waiting to go in. Even though we were sitting outside, we could hear the woman behind the register literally scream at him and tear his head off. It looked like an honest mistake and that's seriously no way to treat a customer, or anyone. He yelled something back at her like he didn't know there was a line and walked away. We got up and left right after that. read more